Acer palmatum 'Shigitatsu Sawa'

Discussion in 'Acer palmatum cultivars (photos)' started by conifers, Sep 8, 2007.

  1. conifers

    conifers Active Member

    Messages:
    608
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Mercer County Illinois Zone 5
    The US National Arboretum, late May, 2006.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,771
    Likes Received:
    62
    Location:
    Fraser Valley, B.C. ,Canada
    Pics 1 and 2 taken May 15/08, pic 3 taken June 5/08.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 5, 2008
  3. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,771
    Likes Received:
    62
    Location:
    Fraser Valley, B.C. ,Canada
    Thanks for putting up the photos Dax, good to see the full tree, apparently an old time cultivar from the early 1800's . Vertrees refers to it in his book as " A magnificent plant ! " and that Hideo Suzuki writes the name means "snipes, quacking, fly up from a swamp ".
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2008
  4. conifers

    conifers Active Member

    Messages:
    608
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Mercer County Illinois Zone 5
    You betcha chimera, carry on!

    Dax
     
  5. Kaitain4

    Kaitain4 Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,160
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Dickson, TN
    I bought a small one this spring and it is quite lovely. It needs a lot of shade or the lighter colors in the leaves will darken up, and you lose the beautiful reticulation.


    K4

    This is a 1 year graft from World Plants. Pics taken April '08:
     

    Attached Files:

  6. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,771
    Likes Received:
    62
    Location:
    Fraser Valley, B.C. ,Canada
    From below May 17/09.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. WillandLynn

    WillandLynn Member

    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Qualicum Beach, British Columbia, Canada
    Most beautiful tree .. *sighs* ... I love the acer variety am going to post pics soon of my variety :)
     
  8. jhk76

    jhk76 Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Seattle
    I also love Shigetatsu Sawa. There are many feminine qualities to it. Mine is planted on the west side of the house where it gets afternoon sunlight. But I have a towering Douglas Fir canopy that gives plenty shade to the plant in the afternoon in Seattle.

    I took this photo in October, 2007.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    1,440
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England
    In the original foreward to "Japanese Maples" (Vertrees) Hideo Suzuki states that the cultivar 'Shigitatsu sawa' has long been associated with a twelfth century Japanese poem:

    Some may find this recent article interesting: A Wisp of Snipes: Translating Medieval Japanese Poetry by Paul S. Atkins, where the author discusses fifty different translations of this same thirty-one syllable poem.

    The article is fascinating in its own right, but what I wanted to mention here, from a maples perspective, is what it adds to our understanding of the cultivar name 'Shigitatsu sawa'. First, although "shigi" is usually translated as "snipe" it is actually more general than that, and can refer to different types of wading birds such as various sandpipers or even the curlew. Second, "sawa" means either marsh or swamp, but most of the translations seem to think marsh is the better fit for the poem, and I would suggest it sounds better in a cultivar name too. Third, in this context "tatsu" can mean any of rise up, fly up, take off, take flight etc. Fourth, there is no mention of quacking, that part of the translated name seems to have been the result of a wild goose chase.

    An authentic translation of the cultivar name might therefore be "Snipe rise up from a marsh" or "Snipes take flight from a marsh", or, for those people who might feel the word "snipe" has negative connotations, it would also be legitimate to use "Sandpipers fly up from a marsh".

    Shigitatsu sawa2.jpg

    (As translated by Hiroaki Sato, 2000)
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2010
  10. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,382
    Likes Received:
    24
    Location:
    Southwest France
    Very Nice Maf, thank you.

    Gomero
     
  11. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,771
    Likes Received:
    62
    Location:
    Fraser Valley, B.C. ,Canada
    Yes, thanks maf. Gives one an understanding of the reverence held in Japan for some of these old cultivars. I don't know much about Japan's history , but thought there were different dialects spoken there hundreds of years ago and wonder if some of the original meanings of the old cultivar names may be missed by modern day translations.
     
  12. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    1,440
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England
    Thanks for your comments. In addition to the changing dialects and idiom over time (for the English equivalent try reading Chaucer in the original form), there is the additional complication with the writing of Japanese in that they adapted Chinese characters to the writing of a totally different language. Unfortunately I am not a scholar in this area, and cannot offer any further useful insight.

    I am reminded of the story Jim told of how Don Kleim had some old literature on Japanese maples translated into English, and had to insist on several different authorities to agree on the translation before he could accept it, and the difficulties they encountered with the meaning of some of the old written characters. I guess we are lucky that 50 translators (at least) have worked on this poem at various times, and we can now be pretty sure what is intended as the meaning of 'Shigitatsu sawa'.
     
  13. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    Thanks for that informative discussion and excellent link Maf.

    Gil
     
  14. shigitatsu

    shigitatsu Member

    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Long Island NY
    I am a collector of Japanese maples. Shigitatsu sawa is a beautiful variety. The Japanese consider it a tender dwarf and grow it in containers. Shigitatsu sawa is the name of a place in Sagama-Oiso. In the Genruku era (1688-1704) the poet Michikaze Oyodo lived there and called it Shigitatsu sawa. Priest Saiygo poem & quote; In the evening, in the fall at Shigatsu Sawa, even a person whose heart is vacant feels sad.

    In the Fall they are all in beautiful red and deep orange color. However the beauty of shigitatsu sawa is in the spring when it displays its leaf venation. The veins are dark green against a light green leaf. The leaf is displayed as the background of my web site (shigitatsu.com).
     
  15. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    1,440
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England
    Hi Shigitatsu, I believe you have quoted a mistranslation of Saigyo's poem. (The same translation appears in the 2nd edition of Vertrees' "Japanese Maples".) The medieval Japanese monk and poet Saigyō died some 500 years before the Genroku era and therefore could not have written a poem about a place that was named in that era. It seems likely the place was named in reference to the poem, not the other way round. Earlier in the thread I linked to an article by Mr. Atkins that gives 50 different translations of this poem.

    Whether the cultivar 'Shigitatsu sawa' has any connection to the place or not I cannot say, but this maple variety has long been associated with the poem, and that much is well documented.
    I couldn't agree more.
     
  16. nelran

    nelran Active Member

    Messages:
    322
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Zone 8 - Houston, TX USA
    Here my two 'Shigitatsu Sawa', Spring 2010.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. seemomster

    seemomster Member

    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Chapel Hill
    I just bought a 'Shigitatsu Sawa' and came here knowing I would find the information I needed to site it appropriately. I am quite enamored with my little tree. I will post a picture when I've finally planted it.
     
  18. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    310
    Likes Received:
    189
    Location:
    Northern Virginia
    ====================================
    Hello K4,

    Can you please explain why there is two Shigitatsu Sawa was listed (one with Aka in front) in the Acer Palmatum photos gallery?. Are they two different cultivars?. And why they use Aka in there?.

    Thanks, Steve
     
  19. marymyers

    marymyers Active Member Maple Society

    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Poulsbo, Washington, USA
    Aka refers to red. Aka Shigitatsu Sawa is a different tree with a beautiful red hue.
     
  20. amazingmaples

    amazingmaples Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Likes Received:
    54
    Location:
    snohomish
    It has a nice bright dark yellow color in fall. I can see the same fall color on 'First Ghost' which came off of Shigitatsu sawa
     

    Attached Files:

    • 026.jpg
      026.jpg
      File size:
      299.2 KB
      Views:
      430
    • 028.jpg
      028.jpg
      File size:
      318.3 KB
      Views:
      474
  21. bub72ck

    bub72ck Active Member

    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    NC
    Just picked up this Shigitatsu Sawa the other day and it was a bit stressed from being in the sun at the nursery. I have it in a nice shady spot now and it's still a beautiful tree. I am working on the bed where it will reside and will have it in the ground soon.
     

    Attached Files:

  22. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,643
    Likes Received:
    11,774
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    My Shigitatsu Sawa has pride of place often on my patio, as long as it's away from afternoon sun.
    I do move some of my collection around that I keep in pots at different times of the year. All depends on tbe sun position.
    This photo was taken during the 34° C heat in June 2020. It shows that if placed correctly you do not have to worry about scorching.
     

    Attached Files:

  23. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,643
    Likes Received:
    11,774
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    31st July 2020, I tried to get a real close up of the leaves, as it was pointed out to me by D @LoverOfMaples the other day that this is very similar to Reticulatum.
     

    Attached Files:

    LoverOfMaples likes this.
  24. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,643
    Likes Received:
    11,774
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    19th August 2020, lashings of rain for last 3 days, everything is picking up, so a good Autumn display is still on the cards.
    This is such a pretty leaf, a little bit of lobe tip scorch but for August I am not worried.
    You can just see the reds that will come out blazing in a few weeks time starting to appear.
     

    Attached Files:

  25. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,643
    Likes Received:
    11,774
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    22nd October 2020 and this is how my Shigitatsu Sawa has turned this year. Yes some nice yellows, but not a lot to get excited about.
    Important to show though, so others who are considering this cultivar can see that sometimes this one might not perform too well in the Autumn.
     

    Attached Files:

Share This Page