Bad Graft on Mikawa Yatsubusa?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by BlackMaple, Jul 15, 2020.

  1. BlackMaple

    BlackMaple Member

    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    7 Austria
    Hi! I'm new to maples and this forum. Looking for some answers. Recently got my second maple from an online nursery, as there are little other options available in my area (Austria, Europe).

    1. Is this graft bad? It looks uneven and bulging. Is there a way to fix it?

    2. How old would you estimate this Mikawa?

    3. Do you think approx. 8 hours offull sun from 06:30-15:00 in Zone 7 (Austria) would be too much? If so, would a roof with 50% shade cloth, reducing full sun exposure to 06:30-09:00 work?

    Thank you!
     

    Attached Files:

    Luke’s Maples likes this.
  2. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,870
    Likes Received:
    12,140
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    @BlackMaple, good afternoon and welcome to the maples forum.
    Next your Mikawa Yatsubusa looks wonderful and the graft is perfectly OK. It does not need any attention at all.
    It is often difficult to tell the age, but IMO I would estimate at about 6 to 7 year old.
    Next on positioning, Japanese maples prefer dappled shade with early morning sun being best. 8 hours of full sun is a too much. You say you would provide shade from 0630hrs -0900hrs , that is the time when it needs some sun light. Afternoon sun is a Japanese maples worst enemy. From 1300 hrs onwards is when protection is needed.
    So position shading material for afternoon and early evening when the sun is at its hottest.

    Hope that's of some help.
     
    AlainK likes this.
  3. BlackMaple

    BlackMaple Member

    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    7 Austria
    @Acerholic thank you! I feared a 50% shade cloth would be blocking too much of the non-direct sunlight, but that sounds good then.

    Although I was told by the nursery, that this Mikawa as well as my incoming Bloodgood and Acer shirasawanum Aureum would be full sun tolerant (I explained my conditions), I fear you are right and I need to move quickly.

    Bought my first Acer Inaba Shidare 3 weeks ago. Read online that it can cope with full sun, but it's not looking good atm (see below).
     

    Attached Files:

    • is-1.jpg
      is-1.jpg
      File size:
      465.9 KB
      Views:
      174
    • is-2.jpg
      is-2.jpg
      File size:
      547.6 KB
      Views:
      213
    • is-3.jpg
      is-3.jpg
      File size:
      428.2 KB
      Views:
      214
    • is-4.jpg
      is-4.jpg
      File size:
      554.6 KB
      Views:
      225
    • is-5.jpg
      is-5.jpg
      File size:
      540.5 KB
      Views:
      177
    • is-6.jpg
      is-6.jpg
      File size:
      483.6 KB
      Views:
      198
    • is-7.jpg
      is-7.jpg
      File size:
      452.3 KB
      Views:
      191
    • is-8.jpg
      is-8.jpg
      File size:
      395.8 KB
      Views:
      185
    • is-9.jpg
      is-9.jpg
      File size:
      468.7 KB
      Views:
      215
    AlainK and zfrittz like this.
  4. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,870
    Likes Received:
    12,140
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    @BlackMaple, first of all the shade cloth for the afternoon sun is fine. That is when it needs the protection.
    Your Bloodgood can tolerate more sun than Aureum and in fact it helps keep the lovely red colour it is known for. The Shirasawanum's can burn quite easily without quite a lot of protection from afternoon sun.
    Next your Inaba Shidare, yes it can cope well in full sun as most dissectum's can. Looking at your tree, it is planted too deep, typical from nurseries. You should be able to see the root flare and have nothing touching the trunk.
    Next on watering, where are the drain holes in your pot? Maples do not like to sit in soggy compost, they need free draining compost, so if your pot has no holes, it is sitting in water which will in time rot the roots. Waterlogged compost means no oxygen to the roots, often resulting in death of the tree.

    Do not over water, my rule of thumb is if the compost feels dry beneath the surface then water, if not then don't.

    As you purchased your Inaba Shidare 3 weeks ago there will also be a settling in time where it can appear to be struggling a little. This will improve.
    Bronzing of the leaves is a natural occurrence of nearly all dissectums at this time of the year, so do no worry about this.

    Please check the drainage and let the thread know what it is like.

    Hope this is of help.
     
  5. dicky5ash

    dicky5ash Generous Contributor

    Messages:
    1,205
    Likes Received:
    1,972
    Location:
    Northampton Uk
    I agree with D but I’d personally avoid full sun for the Inaba shidare..definitely during the settling in period..
     
  6. BlackMaple

    BlackMaple Member

    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    7 Austria
    @Acerholic

    Drainage
    The Inaba Shidare's container has a single, 1 inch pre-drilled hole at the bottom. I covered it with a big shard, then with a fleece followed by a few cm of clay pebbles, another fleece followed by the root ball. I believe that drainage is working, as I can see water coming out of the bottom.

    Watering
    Could well be that I watered overzealously in the beginning. Tried to reduce it after a few days and now seem to be settling to every 3rd day. How I do it: I remove some mulch and stick my finger 2 cm in the soil, then start watering if it feels kinda almost dry. Side note - I think there was already a little bit of brown, wrinkling of foilage tips when I bought it from the garden center. Might well be that they also did overwater it there. Should I feel over- or underwatering when touching the leaves?

    Settling-in period
    Is this settling-in period expected to result in such severe foilage "burn"? How do I know when the period is over? There are a handful of leaves which look very bad (see photos). The tree will only recovery when the foilage comes anew next year, right? Should I consider cutting some of the foilage if it gets much worse, to spurt regrowth? Could it also be that the rather long, direct sunshine onto my fiberglass pod is affecting it?

    I will order the shade cloth asap and for now use a parasol to cover the Inaba.

    Thanks!
     

    Attached Files:

    AlainK likes this.
  7. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,870
    Likes Received:
    12,140
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    @BlackMaple, just read @dicky5ash post and he makes an excellent point.
    Over watering especially when you bring home a new tree or plant is often the cause of problems. It is good you can see water coming out of the bottom. That means it is draining well. But do check if it actually needs watering rather than religiously doing it every three days.
    If the leaves are dead, then they will drop anyway, so just give it a few days. Some people prefer to defoliate and have success, it is either option IMO.
    You have just hit the nail on the head regarding your maple problem. Your fiberglass pod is acting as a greenhouse. Yes this will affect your tree greatly. I've just looked at the temp in Vienna 28°C, if that is anything like that where you are, the temperature under the fiberglass roof will be nearer 40 °C. Your Inaba Shidare is saying NO Thankyou to those conditions.
    You may get a second flush of growth, after the leaves drop, but it is getting a bit late now and the heat you are having will put a stop to this.
    Next Spring will see some good growth, if you give it plenty of shade immediately.
    Maples are under story plants, ie larger trees above them giving lots of protection from hot Summer sun. You must try and replicate this as best you can.

    Hope that's of help
     
  8. BlackMaple

    BlackMaple Member

    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    7 Austria
    @dicky5ash thanks!

    Regarding the missing root flare - I did some digging - around 3 cm - but still no root flare. Stopped there, because was afraid to do damage. Should I go on? But I guess lifting it out is anyway out of the question for this year?
     

    Attached Files:

    AlainK likes this.
  9. BlackMaple

    BlackMaple Member

    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    7 Austria
    Oh damn, I have some plastic pods for the incoming maples, hope they will cope better. Sounds like I need shade cloth like yesterday. Thanks your for all the tips!
     
  10. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,870
    Likes Received:
    12,140
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    @BlackMaple, yes that is planted deep, IMO I would remove the compost that you have already done and in the Autumn when the tree is dormant consider re potting. You can then raise the level to a more suitable position in your pot, allowing for the root flare to show. This then avoids any future problems at the trunk.
    Do give your tree some fresh circulating air as soon as possible.
     
  11. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,870
    Likes Received:
    12,140
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    @BlackMaple, just read your last post, yes do give your other maples protection from the greenhouse effect you have given your Inaba Shidare.
     
  12. BlackMaple

    BlackMaple Member

    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    7 Austria
    @Acerholic I guess my Mikawa has the same problem - no visible root flare (see photos)?

    I think I do feel slight tearing of tiny roots coming out of the trunks when finger-digging though - not sure if imagining. Do you know if it is save to dig down till the root flare lays bare?
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,870
    Likes Received:
    12,140
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    @BlackMaple, it can be quite disconcerning hearing that, but they are tiny roots and it will do the tree no harm. As your maple has suffered some stress already from the move to you and the heat, I would now leave it until Autumn to do this.
    Just remove the compost from the trunk that you have already shown in your photos for now.
     
    BlackMaple likes this.
  14. Luke’s Maples

    Luke’s Maples Generous Contributor

    Messages:
    1,285
    Likes Received:
    1,747
    Location:
    Oxford UK
    Hi, and welcome to the forum. I can see that you have already received lots of great advice. Your Mikawa looks great. Really nicely shaped little specimen you have there. I agree, the graft looks fine.

    Regarding the advice from the nursery on full sun tolerance, I disagree. Not many, if any Japanese Maples like to be in the sun all day. And red dissectums are no different. Aureum is especially sensitive and a little morning sun is about as much as it’ll take without suffering.

    the pots you have them in are very nice and look great, but because of the shape you will struggle to repot once the rootball fills out. You should use pots that are widest at the top so the rootball can slide out once the time comes. I learned this the hard way when I started collecting maples. I had 4 or 5 in big ceramic pots that were a similar shape and after 3 or so years when it was time to repot, well, the hammer had to come out!

    Collecting and caring for Japanese Maples is an amazing hobby and we are learning all the time. I enjoy it very much and you have come to the right place to share your passion and get good advice.
     
  15. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    3,278
    Likes Received:
    4,410
    Location:
    nr Orléans, France (E.U.)
    Very nice trees, and the globe-shape pots are very elegant.

    But I don't use this kind of shape any longer : it's a h**l of a job when it needs repotting and the roots have filled the pot !

    [EDIT]

    I had missed this part of Luke's message when I typed mine :

    "...because of the shape you will struggle to repot once the rootball fills out."

    ;-)

    Same experience apparently.
     
    dicky5ash likes this.
  16. BlackMaple

    BlackMaple Member

    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    7 Austria
    @Luke’s Maples Thanks! Tbh I'm not so happy with the plants I received (Mikawa, Bloodgood, Aureum). The growth is not as symmetrical as hoped. I guess I should have expected this - it's a lottery. I'm spoiled with all the pictures of fine specimen here and on the internets. Below are pictures of the two new arrivals. The aureum has an ugly Graft and the Bloodgood trunk is not very attractive - no single trunk but split in two; kinda weird.

    You are probably right.. need to take special care of this Aureum. Leaves look burnt already.

    Yeah, the pots must be a typical beginner mistake or something :) Also, I'm generally new to plants. The prices of good looking pots are ridiculous, and they even seem to be very hard to source - if you're not in the US; probably better to put this money into the maples.

    @AlainK Indeed, I'm wondering how best to open a glassfibre pot.. probably will need a saw. Or just pull the roots out and do some pruning? Need to get a book on this...
     

    Attached Files:

  17. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    3,278
    Likes Received:
    4,410
    Location:
    nr Orléans, France (E.U.)
    Sawing the pot or the rootbal ? ^_^

    When done in late winter/early spring, a lot of the rootball can be removed, and large roots circling the pot pruned hard. If the newly potted tree is kept frost-free, it's a 99.99% success. So, sawing the rootball vertically (slightly larger at the top) would be a good option.
     
    BlackMaple and Acerholic like this.
  18. dicky5ash

    dicky5ash Generous Contributor

    Messages:
    1,205
    Likes Received:
    1,972
    Location:
    Northampton Uk
    I also avoid composite pots with internal lips at the top..whilst they are straight sided pots just that 20mm lip causes lots of hassle repotting..
     

    Attached Files:

  19. BlackMaple

    BlackMaple Member

    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    7 Austria
    @AlainK So sounds like I need to saw both

    Do I have the right picture in my mind (see below)? Are there some book resources on that?
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Luke’s Maples

    Luke’s Maples Generous Contributor

    Messages:
    1,285
    Likes Received:
    1,747
    Location:
    Oxford UK
    Agreed with the advice about pots. Regarding your trees.. I actually love the look of your Bloodgood. I think it looks great and in a few yews once thickened up a bit will look very attractive. It is of course just my opinion and beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. The Aureum does look a little out of shape but again in time will fill out and with some pruning and patience has the potential to be a lovely tree. The graft isn’t great and should have been tidied up some years ago, but again this is something you could do. If you are not happy though you should talk to the nursery and look for a solution. Refund or replacement for example.
     
  21. Luke’s Maples

    Luke’s Maples Generous Contributor

    Messages:
    1,285
    Likes Received:
    1,747
    Location:
    Oxford UK
    Yep, I have also fallen foul to these lol
     
  22. dicky5ash

    dicky5ash Generous Contributor

    Messages:
    1,205
    Likes Received:
    1,972
    Location:
    Northampton Uk
    Not the neatest of grafts but..those trees look perfectly fine to me.. the stick coming out of the side Of the graft can be cut off in time and it’s likely that the tree bark will entirely cover it in years to come.. re symmetry..these are trees..they grow how they want and will form a nice spread in time
     
    Luke’s Maples likes this.
  23. BlackMaple

    BlackMaple Member

    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    7 Austria
    @dicky5ash wow, that pot looks amazing though!
     
  24. dicky5ash

    dicky5ash Generous Contributor

    Messages:
    1,205
    Likes Received:
    1,972
    Location:
    Northampton Uk
    Only last night I wore my knuckles down on the rough internal wall of that pot in my photo just removing enough soil all around to pull out a large tree..And pot it on
     
  25. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,870
    Likes Received:
    12,140
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    BlackMaple likes this.

Share This Page