Kigi Nursery & UBC Plant Photo's

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Poetry to Burn, Dec 11, 2009.

  1. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    I just noticed that Kigi Nursery added themselves as a Maple resource. Kigi has some good photo's in their online catalog. At least a few of them are from this forum. You can find Gomero's pic of 'Okushimo' there and my pic of 'Utsu semi'.

    I emailed this vendor a bunch of times about taking photo's w/o permission and received no reply.On another site I mentioned that my pics were used w/o permission. Kigi responded that they hired someone to find the photos and they didn't know they were swiped. Kigi has had plenty of time to ask permission. I haven't been contacted.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2009
  2. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Paragon of Plants UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Agreed, their use of images posted to these forums is obvious. I'll take you on your word that you've communicated with them, and I've removed the link. It can be revisited once they sort out the copyright issues.
     
  3. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Thanks Poetry, their A. japonicum 'Vitifolium' is another taken from the Photo Gallery.
     
  4. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    They say a criminal likes to return to the scene of the crime.....
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2009
  5. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Looked at their site and it seems they claim copyright to the photos.
     
  6. Kigi

    Kigi Member

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    Thank you for contacting us on this issue. We are trying hard to fix any wrong doing in photo swapping. When we first launched our site I hired a horrible IT person to bring our products to market. Some photos were taken without permission and we are trying to work them all out. I have removed all the trees mentioned in this thread.

    We are just trying to provide this country with many JM's at unbeatable pricing. Hope some people out there want to support our efforts instead of just blasting us on every blog they can. I never thought the tree business could be so cruel. Anyone wanting to know how our actual customers feel about us check out our feedback on e-bay under bambootrader or kigi Nursery.

    Justen
     
  7. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Justen, Thank you for your cooperation.
     
  8. krautz33

    krautz33 Active Member 10 Years

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    Hey Justin,

    I think it is good that you are trying to make the right corrections to the problem. Sometimes mistakes happen, I hope you make out ok from this mistake.

    Krautz
     
  9. 01876

    01876 Active Member

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    Hey Justin,

    I have to say something here about my mixed feelings, I purchased a grafted size “Ao Kanzashi” (and some others) from you last month because the “Ao Kanzashi” photo you posted on your web looks so different from the one I already have, and I thought the comparison will be quite interesting. When I opened the shipping carton I was amazed by the solid package and the healthy quality plants you’ve shipped to me, not to mention the most reasonable cost ,ever, that you offered. I told myself what a JM resource I found and I’d definitely buy more from you. But now knowing those photos may not snapped from your won parent tree collection, I do not know what the leave color and variegation to expect on my new baby next spring, I feel like a fool, so please understand my disappointment and frustration. Mistakes happen, I'm glad you're trying to fix it and I'm sure your business will be fine with the good service and qulity plants that you have been offered, so thank you and good luck!
    Regards,

    Joe
     
  10. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Photos on nursery web sites and in print catalogs are often not taken at the nursery. The only instance where I have happened to notice that most pictures on the web site are taken of the actual stock in the nursery is with forestfarm in Oregon.
     
  11. Kaitain4

    Kaitain4 Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Justen,

    Thanks for working this out and being responsible. I've bought plants from you before and thought they were great, and I plan on doing so again. I'm not much of a photographer, but you are welcome to use any photos of cultivars I have posted here. Just be sure to give credit for the photo to the UBC forum. I appreciate a vendor who tries to do the right thing. :)


    Take care,

    K4
     
  12. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Re: O.T.- content below not designed to come after anyone in particular.

    Ron, you are probably correct that only a
    handful of nurseries have shown photos
    of their own trees for online sale purposes.

    Granted, a 6-9" tall one year graft is a
    hard sell but people have the right to
    know what they are getting when they
    buy the Maple online from an auction
    host or from a web site as shown in
    the photo.

    Purporting the mature or juvenile tree
    in photo as being the same in name
    as the tree being sold or auctioned
    may be a hoodwink as many times
    it has been. I know of one Maple
    in particular such as Tiger Rose
    in which two nurseries I know
    have shown online photos of two
    distinctly different plants by the
    same name. I can yield to one
    of those nurseries as I am more
    familiar with their Maple they are
    selling (I know who they got their
    stock plant from) than I am with
    the other nursery that is marketing
    the same named plant but is not
    the same Maple and they know it!

    A while back I knew of two
    nurseries that stole photos
    we have posted in this forum.
    One is a member of their
    host states Association of
    Nurserymen and the other is
    not a licensed nursery in their
    home state. At first we felt
    good about someone feeling
    a photo or two of our Maples
    were good enough to use for
    resale purposes until we later
    realized the Maple they are
    trying to sell using our photos
    to help them along probably
    is not the same plant as ours.
    From a nurserymen's standpoint
    this is entirely unethical, certainly
    is unprofessional to not state
    where their plants for resale
    came from if they were not
    grafted and grown on by the
    online nursery. A lot of Maples
    online have been sold to most
    anyone that calls themselves
    a nursery from an Oregon
    wholesale grower. Many of
    those plants are misnamed
    and the end consumers are
    unaware that the Maple they
    are buying online is not what
    the growing nursery is calling
    them.

    I still feel there are some forum
    member nurseries in this forum
    such as Eastfork and Mendocino
    Maples that are better bets for
    people to buy their young Maples
    from. At least then we can go
    back in and track who has what
    as their sourcing for the plants they
    are selling can be documented. We
    do not have sourcing documentation
    from a host of online sellers as it is
    too easy to bluff their way through
    as to not tell, even when asked, that
    the Maples they are selling did not
    originate from them.

    Herein is what I feel should not
    ever be let to happen in this forum.
    People with a zero for posts in this
    forum should not be allowed to list
    themselves as a seller of Maples
    unless they can prove they are
    members of their state horticultural
    association of nurserymen. Are
    they a bona fide nursery or not or
    are they just calling themselves a
    nursery in name to support a new
    enterprise when in fact they are just
    a nursery wantabe or wishabe and
    can get away with the nursery name
    only because they offer plants for
    sale online, yet there are no on site
    in person sales at all. This is
    not a nursery that does not offer
    plants on site to the public or
    to other nurseries in the same
    capacity of being a wholesale
    nursery to other nurseries.
    Anyone can get a resale
    license from their home
    state to sell plants but
    not just anyone can call
    themselves a nursery
    and be legitimate is how
    it is supposed to work.

    In case it ever comes to this, no,
    a nursery in name only that is not
    licensed with their home state are
    not permitted to use any of our
    photos we have posted in this
    forum for commercial purposes.
    I want a guarantee the Maple
    they are selling is the same
    as what we have posted in
    this forum. Chances are
    greater they are not going to
    be same Maple and I'll give
    two examples why. The Butterfly
    we bought by that name from
    a retail nursery is actually the
    old form Kocho nishiki from
    Japan. [The Maple in a garden
    that Idacer posted photos of
    in Boise that led to confusion
    is the Oregon Butterfly by
    comparison] The Kotohime we
    posted photos of is the aka
    form. I doubt there are more
    than five people in the world
    that still have that Maple in their
    collections. For general overview
    we lump it and call the Maple a
    Kotohime. For technical purposes,
    we separate it and call the Maple
    Aka kotohime.

    Jim
     
  13. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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  14. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Re: O.T. concepts

    We have had an evolution so to speak with the Forum
    Charter.

    Back in another thread I mentioned that I feel the
    photos we have posted in these forums are now
    the ownership of the UBC CPR forum. I have
    not changed my view any from that. I will say
    however, if someone were to ask for permission
    to use our photos for their commercial enterprise
    and the question gets back to me from the UBC
    CPR for my approval, the answer will be no.
    Unless I know them, know of them or if they
    can show to me that the Maple they are
    wanting and trying to sell is the same Maple
    as the photos of ours they want to use.
    Asking for permission goes a long ways
    but to take someone’s photo for the purpose
    of personal gain, no matter how it is done
    or who else might have done it, is not kosher
    no matter how you look at it. For personal,
    private use is another matter altogether.

    Not many times have we had someone that
    was indirectly or directly involved in a flam-
    flam be a member of this forum. Usually
    it was someone else away from the forum
    that had no interest at all in becoming a
    member among us in this forum. I suggest
    we know more of the facts at hand before
    we go around condemning someone that
    is now a bona fide member of this forum.
    Ebay feedback does give us a means to
    use to check up on the seller. So does
    information passed around in this forum
    by forum members that either know the
    seller or have had personal contact
    with the seller. I have no knowledge of
    the seller in question either way and thus
    changed the title of my last post with an
    O.T. - off topic heading not to indict them
    without foundation. At least they did not
    go away and hide like so many others
    surely would have. They did not run
    from the impropriety which is rare to
    me. Looking forward to reading what
    they have to offer as members of this
    forum.

    By the way, the Maple that IDacer posted
    photos of was in the general Maple forum.
    In case anyone wants to go back and find
    that thread. Also, that was Mr. Vertrees’
    Maple that originated from seed taken
    from Kocho nishiki and has been and still
    is sold in nursery trade circles as Butterfly.

    Jim
     
  15. Kigi

    Kigi Member

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    Has anyone ever seen the show "The View".... Anyway I just thought I would start with a little laugh. I would like to give some history about us. We are a family owned business since 2005. We are raising our 4 little girls up in this trade and I hope to pass the business off to them some day. We are not a fly-by-night shop with little interest in integrity. The future of the nursery business is going online. Most people start off with a retail store and dabble online we started online and have exploded in sales. My business plan includes keeping our prices as low as we can by running little overhead expenses. Most all of us (online or retail stores) buy our plants from about 15-20 different growers. Of these growers how many different scion wood suppliers do you think they have??? I am on a first name basis with most all of the major players in the growers world of the Northwest USA and I can tell you that there is no way that anyone offering 150+ cultivars is supplying you with a parent stock picture of that tree most of the time. I believe it was Sam from Eastfork Nursery that said they use Buchholtz pics with permission. His pictures are from all around the world... so before people want to start pointing fingers at who's who in this industry, get your facts right.

    I am doing my part to fix a beginners mistake of allowing someone else to build my store. I appreciate all of your comments, and look forward to hearing worthwhile advise for the growth of my business and the industry as a whole. I do understand that a lot of you are weary of new faces in the trade, hopefully that will pass with time.

    Justen
     
  16. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    >I am on a first name basis with most all of the major players in the growers world of the Northwest USA...they use Buchholtz pics with permission. His pictures are from all around the world... so before people want to start pointing fingers at who's who in this industry, get your facts right<

    He spells it Buchholz.
     
  17. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    The future of the nursery industry is not online.
    Yes, many of the "big boys" do have web sites
    but most of those nurseries are wholesale growers
    and do not sell to upstart nurseries in name only
    that are not current or past members of their state
    associations of nurserymen. Used to be a mandated
    requirement for all wholesale plant sales, still is in
    some parts of the country.

    Jim
     
  18. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    On the other hand, Raintree's sales exploded when they went online.
     
  19. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Mr. Shep, have looked around for "the UBC CPR forum", but failed to find it. Maybe you could provide us, that are unfamiliar to it, with a link, thanks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2009
  20. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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  21. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    LOL, thanks maf, for the clarification.
     
  22. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    No probs, I didn't twig the meaning of CPR at first either.

    The thing about this whole affair that puzzles me is that Kigi is only now rectifying the theft when Poetry originally informed them of the problem over a year ago. What is different now?
     
  23. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Kigi/Justen:
    "I am doing my part to fix a beginners mistake of allowing someone else to build my store"

    I feel that explanation is bogus. I sent messages to Kigi's Ebay store and website well over a year ago. Did "someone else" ignore those messages?

    Kigi/Justen:
    "We are trying hard to fix any wrong doing in photo swapping".
    Properly referred to as 'photo swiping'.

    In response to Maf's question "What's different now" .....

    In my view the difference is that the practice has been exposed and this is damage control. Here, on this thread, a simple apology and a request for permission would have gone a long way. Instead Kigi uses the exposure as a marketing opportunity:

    Kigi/Justen:
    "We are just trying to provide this country with many JM's at unbeatable pricing."

    "family owned business since 2005. We are raising our 4 little girls up in this trade and I hope to pass the business off to them some day. We are not a fly-by-night shop with little interest in integrity."

    Justen mentions being being "blasted" and "cruel blogs" yet he still hasn't apologized for using these photos or ignoring messages.

    I am less confident about Kigi being on UBC than when I initiated the thread.
     
  24. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Re: O.T. concepts

    Expect that could be somewhat controversial, as some members are professional photographers and have posted their photos under the existing Forum Charter.
     
  25. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Paragon of Plants UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Re: O.T. concepts

    I suppose I should step in and say that the charter as posted is current -- and the part about image use remains the same as it was when originally posted in June 2004.

    I'm not interested in a rights grab.

    (PS maf -- see 5.15 of the charter re: editing posts re: your Dec 12 post -- I don't think it matters in this instance, since the thread reads the same with or without that posting (I think?), but just something to be aware of)
     

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