Leaf out quizz

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Gomero, May 9, 2010.

  1. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Today all my maples have fully leafed out except one which, taking into account the good coverage of species in my garden, has a good case to claim to be the 'last one' of all maples; which species/ssp.?

    Mike (Katsura) knows it since he is also growing it, right Mike?

    Gomero
     
  2. zonebreaker

    zonebreaker Active Member

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    Acer triflorum ?
     
  3. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    In my garden triflorum goes before griseum, even. The last for me is A. pentaphyllum. Mine is just showing bud growth... (although in Paris in a pot it is leafed out).

    -E
     
  4. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Nope André, all the species of section Trifoliata are fully leafed out.

    Gomero
     
  5. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Nope Emery, all species of section Pentaphylla are fully leafed out.

    Gomero
     
  6. zonebreaker

    zonebreaker Active Member

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    give us a lead, is it some sort of palmatum?
     
  7. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    André,
    Is not a cultivar.
    In my replies I have already eliminated all the species in the two sections mentioned. I guess that, in order, one would have to find the section and then the species/ssp

    Gomero
     
  8. zonebreaker

    zonebreaker Active Member

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    ok one more, Acer tutcheri .
     
  9. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Acer calcaratum?
     
  10. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Acer sempervirens?
     
  11. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Actually thinking again, A. schneiderianum has not yet burst for me either. But IIRC that's section palmatum too. tutcherii I think goes earlier.
     
  12. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Nope, all species in section Acer have leafed out.

    Ok here is more complicated. The species under discussion is not in section Palmata. In this section I feel confident with Group Palmata, however in the other two groups, Sinensia and Penninervia, there are a lot of rare Chinese maples that I do not have in my garden and which may trump my 'champion'. I do have calcaratum which is fully leafed out but I do not have A. schneiderianum.
    To advance more quickly, and in addition to sections already mentioned, one can also eliminate sections Parviflora, Macrantha, Negundo, Indivisa, Pentaphylla, Pubescentia and Rubra. I am uncertain for section Hyptiocarpa since I have none of the two entries there.

    This quizz will at least help some readers to brush up on their Acer classification skills ;-))

    Gomero
     
  13. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    No idea about how the acers develop with you Gomero, but Griseum is always much later in leafing out for me than any others so that is the best guess I can muster ... mind you seeing as how it seems to have been already discounted I guess it can't be :)
    The first to show for me this year was the snake bark 'Serpentine'
     
  14. Daniel Otis

    Daniel Otis Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Let's see. If I've figured added it all up correctly, that leaves sections Wardiana, Glabra, Lithocarpa, Platanoidea, and Ginnala.

    I tried to hunt down wardii, but at the time I was looking it was impossible to come by, so I'm inclined to cross that off the list.

    I've grown all the subspecies of ginnala, and I don't recall that any of them are especially late, although I might expect them to be, given where some of them come from. But they are in full leaf here in New York. So I'm inclined to cross off that section. I do remember one tataricum that was very slow to leaf out--don't know the subspecies, though. I always figured it was because I abused it.

    So that leaves Platanoidea, Glabra, and Lithocarpa. Now, knowing that katsura has grown it is a useful hint, because I think he's less inclined to grow ugly plants than I am. I'll use that clue to cross off Glabra, although there's a chance he might grow it out of West Coast loyalty. (Also possible it looks a lot better on the West Coast.)

    That leaves Platanoidea and Lithocarpa. I've grown all the species except nayongense and tibetense, so they are possibilities. If I were a plant growing in Tibet, I might want to leaf out late. But none of the other species in the section are notably late. Still, tibetense and nayonense are probably very hard to come by. I'm inclined to cross off section Platanoidea, but some of the weirder members are possibilities--maybe longipes catalpifolium, mono okamotoanum.

    So that leaves us with section Lithocarpa. I've always thought this is a strange group. I've grown macrophyllum a few times. Last time I grew it, about ten years ago, it went dormant it and still hasn't leafed out, so if late leafing is the criterion that's a possibility. I bet that katsura grows it, too, but I don't know how it behaves in its native environment. Diabolicum is out here, so that probably isn't it. Hmmmm. Maybe sterculiaceum thomsonii? Doubt it.

    Well, as I look over the list of remaining possibilities, and my "reasoning," I see that I'm only choosing plants I've never grown, which means I'm guessing.

    Is it tree from a cold area (mountains, northern China), or else one of the Platanoidea weirdos?

    Good thread! For me, pentaphyllum is always last, by about a month.
     
  15. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I won't get to my reference books until tonight, so I'm frustrated by not being able to look anything up for this thread until then, and fascinated. This shows I have to memorize the de Jong classification! :)

    I'm going by the fact the Gomero's plants generally leaf out a good 2 weeks before mine. This leaves me more perplexed than ever! Macrophyllum is out in my garden, and longipes catalpifolium is very early. Don't know about the elusive okamatoanum... It seems to me that Esveld was selling some form of sterculiaceum a couple of years ago, so I expect to find it in Gomero's garden!

    -E
     
  16. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Great Daniel, you are playing the game!. Good analysis. I agree Wardiana, Glabra and Ginnala are out. That leaves Platanoidea and Lithocarpa. And, yes, it is a nice maple (as stated by Le Hardÿ de Beaulieu in his book, where there are nice pictures of it ), otherwise Mike (Katsura) would not grow it ;-)).

    Emery, you are right, my maples leaf out 2-3 weeks before yours. You may not be growing the mistery maple, I have not seen it for sale in Europe.

    Gomero
     
  17. Daniel Otis

    Daniel Otis Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Good, more clues.

    I was developing another elaborate theory based on Mike's love of variegation and what I imagine might be unavailable in Europe, but then I reread the previous posts and saw that it is not a cultivar.

    Hmmm...what species would not be available in Europe? We do have a fair number of people collecting in China, so my guess is it's a Chinese subspecies of sterculiaceum, longipes, cappadocicum, pictum (mono), or truncatum. Is it one of these?

    I'll have to hope that Emery can zero in further once he gets to his Le Hardy de Beaulieu.

    Dan
     
  18. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hmm, very tricky, Watson.

    My money is on... (drum roll) ... A. tenellum. There are some pluses and minuses for this guess, so I won't say I'm sure.

    Proceeding by elimination, however.

    In section Lithocarpa we have eliminated everything except sterculiaceum and ster. ssp. franchetii. However like diabolicum, sinopurpurascens is already leafed out here, and ster. ssp franchetii is closely related, so I'd expect it to be out too. Also both these are available in Europe, Esveld has them in current stock.

    So that leaves Platanoidea.

    Now by process of elimination. The various cappadocicums are available in the trade and afaik don't leaf out terribly late. The pictum (mono) varieties are legion, but not very well covered in Le Hardy, (no plural for Gomero's "pictures") so we can rule them out. Besides which I think many are available in the UK which is part of Europe in spite of the incoming conservative gubbmint. Okamotoanum and miyabei aren't that rare. The longipes clan are all out here, truncatum and campestre also. Le Hardy doesn't list any (or I missed it) other subspecies of these that I don't know about. That leaves A. platanoides ssp turkestanicum and A. tenellum. Le Hardy doesn't seem particularly fussed about the former, and mentions that it's growing at "some arboreta, including Hillier." Can the market be far behind? :) I suppose leafing out late might be an adaptation to "harsh conditions" (drought?) though.

    That leaves A. tenellum. Le Hardy says the "leaves ... appearing later in the season." It is undeniably very attractive in the pictures, but in my translated to English edition Le Hardy doesn't pronounce it so... Also it is listed in the Esveld paper catalog, although not the stock list or the online catalog. The rhs plant finder doesn't find it.

    Kind of wonder why it's in this section at all...

    So, what do I win, maybe seeds? :)

    -E
     
  19. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Well, let me get it straight, Gomero is not kidding the forum with a dead maple (LOL), as some are already thinking...... The pic below, taken today, of an upper bud proves it. The lower buds already show the tiny leaves forming.

    Nope, Emery, is not A. tenellum, which by the way I am not growing , but tenellum could also be a very late leafer, who knows.

    Daniel's analysis is hotter, he is getting very close. If the picture is not enough, one other hint is that it was first described by Nathaniel Wallich in the nineteenth century. Now with all of this (and possibly a phone call to Katsura ;-)), it should be straightforward.

    Gomero
     

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  20. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Groan. A. sterculiaceum Wallich 1830. ssp thomsonii (Miquel 1867)? I give up, time for dinner. :) I shall toast your mystery, and remind you that unless the maple is extinct, that's how you spell it (since you stumped me). ;)

    -E
     
  21. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Nope, is not A. sterculiaceum. Mr. Wallich likely described many different plants ;-)), he was an avid plant explorer.

    Bon appetit Emery! albeit this is more Spanish dinner time than French (LOL)

    Gomero
     
  22. Daniel Otis

    Daniel Otis Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Well, sterculiaceum sterculiaceum. But you told us, so I can't claim credit. I was prepared to go with tenellum, which is one of the few species maples I still have. It IS a little later than the others.

    I loved franchettii when I had it--a great plant with fuzzy leaves when they are first out.
     
  23. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hmm, some additional hints: The mystery maple was introduced in England by Ernest Wilson in 1911 and also a few years later by George Forrest, the well known Scottish plant hunter.

    Gomero
     
  24. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Acer griseum - Millet
     
  25. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Please see post #4 in this thread.

    Gomero
     

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