Mycorrhizae for Maples

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Maple_Lady, Feb 2, 2008.

  1. Maple_Lady

    Maple_Lady Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I am interested in hearing from members who have used or are using Mycorrhizae in the potting mix for their maples. Is this still a relatively new product to growers?
     
  2. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Sam, do you use this for your containers? I've seen claims that it is useless in containers because it cannot be sustained effectively but others say once established it is maintenance free. Also i notice in most of my pots a kind of mycelium that occurs without any action from me.

    There's an interview in this months Sun of Paul Stamets. His interpretation of fungi is mind bending, for real.
     
  3. Maple_Lady

    Maple_Lady Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Gil,

    Actually the mycorrhizae work quite effectively in containers. Rapid root growth and a better capacity to asorb water during hot summers, expecially it hot black plastic 1 and 2 gallon containers. According to the Mycoapply people, once this fungi is in the root system it stays for the life of the plant.

    In my display garden I have been going in and pounding a stake near the drip line of each maple to create a hole and then add mycorrhizae - I didn't have it when these maples were planted. Since I started using it in 2005 I have added some to the roots of every plant I have added in my gardens. I think it works! Sam
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2008
  4. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    As a trip to Wikipedia can attest:
    So the question of relevance here is: which type of mycorrhizae is favored by Maples?

    So, if anybody has information on this, let's contribute.

    I have myself found an article which itself is a review of articles on the subject. They have a table of plant species including three maples: campestre, platanoides and pseudoplatanus. For A. campestre 4 references mention endomycorrhizae (endo for short) and 2 ectomycorrhizae (ecto). For A. platanoides 5 endo and 1 ecto. And for A. pseudoplatanus, 21 endo and 4 ecto.

    I have found nothing on A. palmatum.

    Gomero
     
  5. Maple_Lady

    Maple_Lady Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Gomero,

    I was told by the expert, Dr. Mike, founder of Mycorrhizal Applications, Inc. to use the Endo product. I prefer the powder over the granules. They are also participating in a carbon study. It seems that the symbiotic relationship with the beneficial fungi and the roots helps to trap carbon and keep it in the ground. This fungi is found in nature, but it is easily destroyed by over tilling the soil and that is exactly what we have done to our planet. The carbon studies are very interesting and in their last newletter they stated:

    "Soil carbon levels increased 95% in the surface 0-10 inch layer, 80% in the 11-20 inch layer and 60% in the 21-30 inch layer using a rapidly growing grass species well colonized by specialized mycorrhizal fungi in only a 4-month growth period. There carbon levels were still present in the soil 2 years following the study."

    Check out www.mycorrhizae.com and www.mycoapply.com.

    Sam
     
  6. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Sam,

    Great link, thanks. So for maples it is endo, great, everybody knows now. Curiously in Europe most commercially available products contain ecto which seems to be required by about 5% of species.

    Gomero
     
  7. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I take it that this 'fungus' you guys are talking about is one and the same as I see on the roots of my well established plants? A sort of pink balled growth?
    Sorry ... I am just a beginner here :)
     
  8. Maple_Lady

    Maple_Lady Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Whis4ey,

    Actually, to me it looks like spiderwebs in the root system, I don't know about color, but different soils and plants could create different looks. I did my own little experiment - I did not add the mycorrhizae to several 1 gallon containers when I repotted from 4" grafts. I tagged them and then mixed them in with the rest of my maples. This winter I found a couple of the maples with plain sterile potting mix. I carefully removed the maple from the 1 gallon container and shook off the medium. I then selected another 1 gallon with the mycorrhizae and did the same. The difference in root mass was awesome and now I will get to watch the maples grow this sping and see how much new growth is added. Thanks, Sam
     
  9. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Interesting Sam
    Looks like I will have to have a try with this stuff myself :)
     
  10. Maple_Lady

    Maple_Lady Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Whis4ey, one of these days I am going to take some photos and post them to show the difference in root structure. :-)
     
  11. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Sam,

    I was wondering if the myco product is useful for production type conditions but not so critical for collectors. I notice that almost all of my plants have a degree of Mycorrhizae the older plants have more. If the spore is in the atmosphere and the media is favorable it seems like you'll get inoculated in time.

    Does that make sense?

    Gil
     
  12. Maple_Lady

    Maple_Lady Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Gil,

    Not sure of that because most maples are potted with a sterile mix. It is a good question for the experts. Sam
     
  13. seventrees

    seventrees Active Member

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    I too will have to try this stuff. Unfortunately, I've just completed most of my repotting for this year (maybe 10 more to go).

    Since the start of this thread, I've done a bit of reading on mycorrhizae. My difficulty now is in deciding which form is more appropriate for maples once thay have been potted.

    Sam, why do you prefer powder over granules? Would not granules or mycorrhizae mixed with coffee grounds teased into the potting medium be as effective as dipping the roots in a liquid solution?

    Another concern that I have is whether mycorrhizae will cause excessive root growth and lead to an increased root pruning/repotting frequency. Currently I'm on a three year frequency when increasing pot size and two years when repotting into the same pot.

    Again, I'd love to try it but how about someone providing a little information on the possible negatives associated with its use.

    Mr. Shep. Any opinions?

    seventrees
     
  14. kaydye

    kaydye Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I began using mycorrhizae tablets at the recommendation of Frank Byles, who always sent some along with superthrive with his orders. This is what he had in his catalog:

    Out in the woods maples and many other plants produce a natural fungus which helps root growth and improves plant health while protecting against disease. One time application that is great for conifers, good for maples and has no effect on rhodys or azaleas. 2 or 3 tablets per 1 gallon pot or 8 to 10 per caliper inch of tree.

    I never really heard anyone else talk about it much, so I find this thread interesting. I have been adding tablets to my maples, both potted and planted. I notice none of you use or have mentioned the tablets and I'm wondering why.
    Kay
     
  15. Maple_Lady

    Maple_Lady Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi guys,

    I use the powder form of mycorrhizae and I use endo versus ecto. It doesn't seem to make the roots get bound in the pot, but it fills the container. Hard to describe. I added mycorrhizae to already potted maples - 7 and 10 gallon size by pounding a bamboo stake down to the roots and then pouring a little of the powder into the crevice and adding a little water. Without repotting it seems that the maples can absorb more nutrients and water.

    Seventrees, why not do an experiment and add some and not to others. You can get this product from www.mycorrhiaze.com

    Actually if you want to send me a private message with your shipping address I will send you some.

    Kay, I am not familiar with the tablets. Sam
     
  16. bigjohn33

    bigjohn33 Active Member

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    i think taht the use of mycorrhizae is much more useful for plants in pot than for trees in the ground
    accordind to g maillot, if the tree is planted in a place it likes, they are not useful even if they cannot harm the tree
    in France we do ont have so much choice of products with myco
    there are ENDORIZE and MYCOR
    these product are made for the time of planting and ont really for maintenance of trees in the ground
    don't hesitate french forumers to give others products!
     
  17. Maple_Lady

    Maple_Lady Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Bigjohn,

    Since I have 20 lbs of mycorrhizae I use it whenever I plant something in my garden, including ferns, perennials, grasses, etc. I see it as helping the plant get established quicker and therefore, less susceptible to drought issues the first hot summer.
    Seems like the weather is getting stranger every year. Have you noticed weird weather in France? Sam
     
  18. richardbeasley@comcast.net

    richardbeasley@comcast.net Active Member Maple Society

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    My two cents:

    I have heard that if you are planting in an area that has other trees around, you don't need it. I have also read that it will repress many microbial soil-borne pathogens. Plus, there are as many as ten different type of mycorrhizal fungi. I am glad to hear Sam uses it, because that mean I don't have to buy it, as it is expensive and you have to buy it in the winter because it starts to die off at 72 F or 22 C. This is not the case with profession products that are waterborne. I threw a new word at ya, did you see it?

    PS : It can take temps, up to 120 F or 49 C, if in a pot with at plant, but not in a dry storage medium. A company that makes it, or should it be, that cultures it, told me this. Very interesting stuff, that is, nature like stuff, isn't it.

    syn = together + bio = life + myco = fungus + rhiza = root or (symbiotic fungus in the root. )

    Can I culture it? a pretty post aint it?
     
  19. richardbeasley@comcast.net

    richardbeasley@comcast.net Active Member Maple Society

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    My two cents:

    I have heard that if you are planting in an area that has other trees around, you don't need it. I have also read that it will repress many microbial soil-borne pathogens. Plus, there are as many as ten different type of mycorrhizal fungi. I am glad to hear Sam uses it, because that mean I don't have to buy it, as it is expensive and you have to buy it in the winter because it starts to die off at 72 F or 22 C. This is not the case with profession products that are waterborne. I threw a new word at ya, did you see it?

    PS : It can take temps, up to 120 F or 49 C, if in a pot with at plant, but not in a dry storage medium. A company that makes it, or should it be, that cultures it, told me this. Very interesting stuff, that is, nature like stuff, isn't it.

    syn = together + bio = life + myco = fungus + rhiza = root or (symbiotic fungus in the root. )

    Can I culture it?




    a pretty reply aint it?
     
  20. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    "Is this still a relatively new product to growers?"

    Yes, it is still fairly new to growers and to the
    general public.

    "According to the Mycoapply people, once this
    fungi is in the root system it stays for the life
    of the plant.
    "

    This is far from being true. The fungi will send
    a haustorium into the root hair, much like what
    mistletoe does in a tree branch. We see the
    fruiting body outside the branch but we do not
    see the sap sucking haustorium inside the branch.
    In dry (less humid) areas that get some warmness
    the mycorrhizal fungi do not last long. Humidity
    and temperature affect how long or how short in
    time the fungi will live in the soil and in the root.
    The fungi die out here when outside temperatures
    get into the mid 70's to coincide with soil temps
    in the mid 50's. Many fungi die out when the soil
    temps get in the mid 50's and mycorrhizal fungi
    are no different.

    They do not sustain for long periods of time in
    some native soils in Oregon either. We see the
    Fall re-emergent forms as an advancement in wet
    to moist, acid soils with cool soil temperatures
    in Oregon of helping a native Pine along during the
    Winter to help sustain flow to help along the
    build up of turgor pressure for the Spring flush of
    new growth. This is the beneficial adaptation to
    palmatum type Maples in cooler areas but we may
    have a small window in time to inoculate to do us
    any real good. Continued fungal inoculations in
    solution or dry applications of the fungi may be
    needed in cool and moist areas but for dry and
    warm areas there is no real benefit to applying
    mycorrhizal fungi for our container plants when
    grown outdoors here in the San Joaquin Valley
    and especially the Central Valley. For fresh
    grafts that have taken, not died out due to the
    woods not merging or due to fungal suppression
    in the roots (Pythium, Rhizoctonia, Fusarium,
    Verticillium, Phytophthora) or fungal growth
    on the leaves and stems on the fresh graft which
    can spread to the graft union and later inhibit
    or can kill (Rhizopus, Botrytis, Phytophthora),
    then inoculations to fresh grafts grown on and
    kept in a temperature, humidity and even air
    movement controlled greenhouse for container
    plants can have the ability to do us a lot of good.
    The misnomer is that mycorrhizal fungi instantly
    leads to more root shoot development. The real
    purpose is to increase nutrient and water flow
    conductivity inside the plant, whereby when we
    have adequate flow we can see healthier new
    growth but not necessarily a lot more top
    growth than usual in some years, which can
    in turn, later on once the flush of new growth
    stops, yield for us more root shoot formation.
    The fungi can increase the likelihood that we
    can get more adequate flow inside the plant
    but does not necessarily mean we will as we
    still need other soil microorganisms to help
    us along also. Have the anaerobic bacteria
    alone absent in our soils and potting mixes
    and the mycorrhizal fungi by itself is of little
    long term use for us.

    Having a rich soil substrate precludes the
    need for applying mycorrhizal fungi in
    many areas where Maples are grown.
    Juiced rootstocks that are coming in from
    Japan and elsewhere are inoculated with
    mycorrhizal fungi and grown in a greenhouse
    or an atmospheric controlled area or room.
    The real benefit here is that the presence
    of the mycorrhizal fungi keeps the wood
    from the prospective rootstock "slipping"
    which greatly increases the plants ability
    to take on a new wood and facilitate the
    healing process. This is the reasoning why
    some growers swear by mycorrhizal fungi
    inoculations applied to the prospective
    rootstocks in that their percentage of fresh
    graft "takes" goes way up as opposed to
    their grafting methods before.

    If the fungi would grow and spread on
    their own naturally and not perish there
    would be no need to further inoculate
    again. One thing to consider is that
    with the ebb and flow that when the
    root shoot becomes desiccated that
    the fungi help advance that shoots
    demise by taking moisture out of
    and away from the shoot. Another
    thing to take in consideration is that
    ground applied sulfur used to kill or
    suppress water mold fungi can also
    kill off mycorrhizal fungi living on
    and in a root shoot. Gomero has it
    right to be wary of using soil applied
    fungicides where he is. The cost to
    the plant suppressing natural microbial
    activity may outweigh the benefit we
    may get from selective fungal suppression
    from the applied sulfur. We treat for
    one organism that can hurt us but may
    kill off the beneficials that can help
    us in doing so.

    Jim
     
  21. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    This topic is complex and there is 'science' supporting contradictory claims. It would be valuable for someone in the innoculant business to read through the posts and present some observations. Someone with expertise might find it worthwhile to contribute here it might generate some business and it could certainly help with credibility.

    I am going to forward a link to Dr. Mike, Paul Stamets and others.

    Gil
     
  22. richardbeasley@comcast.net

    richardbeasley@comcast.net Active Member Maple Society

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  23. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Re: Mycorrhizae pick your expert

    Whoa, there's a whole lot of info there.

    Thanks Richard.
     
  24. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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  25. Maple_Lady

    Maple_Lady Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Thanks Richard,

    I had no idea they had their own society. LOL Sam
     

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