variation in "sango kaku" hello emery, in answer to your question, both of my sango kaku are grafted, but apparently, this is not a guarantee that either of them are cultivars. it has been my understanding, after reading through all the posts, ( and please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong ) that it is not uncommon to buy a grafted tree, whose upper half is, in fact, a seedling. discounting the effects of soil and climate, and mislabeling, this would easily account for the lack of uniformity among cultivars which carry the same name. i think it's great that you have four sango kaku that have discernible differences. i commented in an earlier post that i wish i could have a couple of each variety that i have, just to see how different or similar they are in different environments or growing conditions. i actually have an umegae, a "butterfly", and a "garnet" that i have issues with, all of which are grafted, but they are for another set of posts. ^_^ i will include a few photos of the sango kaku i have on my balcony, and will add some photos of my first one, when i next visit it. one photo is of the side facing the sun, the greener side faces my apartment. so you can see the effects of direct sunlight on the leaves. thank you ! n. musume
Gosh, I actually crashed my browser trying to reply! OK, again. Actually I think you read it right. Obviously a "true" cultivar must be propagated vegetatively from the original plant. But our experience indicates that, not only in the US, there are plants being sold as Sango Kaku that exhibit sizable variation. So, why? Is there an environmental factor that could cause a clone to modify its behavior regardless of the future environments of its offspring? Have we seen dilution of this cultivar through similar, but perhaps more tolerant plants like Eddisbury, or indeed good growing seedlings that exhibit very similar characteristics? Is it possible that Sango Kaku has become a grex? Dunno! Of my 4, I consider the "true" one that which came from Esveld. The other dutch plant is very similar, and may in fact be identical. (It's older.) The Spanish and French plants are considerably paler, and show other differences. The French is not very vigorous, to the point where I wonder if it might not want to be a dwarf form; but of course I could just have a less healthy plant. It's leaves are considerably smaller and seem to scorch more easily. Your plants are very pretty, thank you for the pictures. I have been taking a photo-log of my maples leafing out this year, in the fall I will post a link to the series'. Hopefully I will be able to separate the different Sango Kakus into separate series. -E
Actually it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to find that unscrupulous nurseries have been grafting 'less than pure' scions onto root stock, thereby effectively leading to a 'bastardisation' (what a horrible word) of the original cultivar It seems to me that we are now getting to the stage where we will have to simply enjoy our maples for their outstanding beauty rather than for their 'name'
"sango kaku" hi emery, i'm looking forward to seeing your series of photos. although i think that would be a far more educational way of learning about them, i don't have the patience to wait until the end of the year and do a proper series with all of my trees. >_< i'm especially curious to see the different shades of red your bark will exhibit. the bark of my first sango kaku seemed to have a much more robust color of red on the side that faced the sun, with the new shoots from last year, emerging and retaining their bright red color until this past march. the bark on this one is now an even green all over. and whis4ey, i think you're correct about having the right attitude in just enjoying the trees for their beauty. i know i could get totally obssessed with hunting down and acquiring the "real-deal-holyfield" cultivars, but i've neither the finances, nor the time, and least of all, the education and experience to know what to look for. and thank you for sharing all the photos from your lovely garden ! ^_^ n. musume
From Yano, Masayoshi. Book For Maples [カエデの本] (Japan Maple Publishing Group 2003): Acer palmatum ‘Sango kaku’ (1882) Synonym [海老の髭] ‘Ebi no hige’ An old cultivar with red stems in winter. The spring foliage is yellow-green with brown tips. The summer leaves are green turning orange or yellow in autumn. Sam, you would love this book! (A pre-publication description: http://ganshuku.cool.ne.jp/20_02BookEN.html.) The leaves in the photograph of ‘Sango kaku’ look just like the leaves I typically see. There is no mention of any cultivar named ‘Senkaki’. Neko, I never see the beautiful color here that the leaves take on in the southern California sunshine, so that is one trade-off for not seeing the deep color in the bark. Have a great time at that sale!
Laurie ..... I would LOVE to have that book Do you know where it can be bought? What is the exact title?
whis4ey, I've seen that "Book for Maples" is available at the Maillot site. I just checked and Esveld now has it also. Many zorros, sadly. I will get my wife to give it to me for Christmas, that way I won't have to know what it cost. I'm sure we'd all agree that we appreciate our plants for their beauty, not necessarily whether they are the "real McCoy." Some of my favorite plants, as I walk around the garden, are those I've nursed and had trouble with, even if they aren't the the healthiest or most perfect. But, but. After all the hours poring in the books, memorizing the names, comparing sources, making a point to see that cultivar or rare species when travelling, I get pretty obsessive. (At least that's what my family and friends say!) When I finally find and purchase a plant. I really want to know it's what I think it is. I will appreciate it just the same, but I am disappointed when I don't get what I'm expecting. I'm relatively new to this, but I am starting to get the impression that there are some less than squeaky clean folks in the business. (I suppose that's true in any business). I was in a local garden center today and glanced at the palmatums as I always do. There was a green maple labeled "Bloodgood!" Now, I'm sure this was an honest mistake, and the fellow said when I pointed it out that a bunch of labels had fallen off and been re-stapled. Even still. -E
It is really expensive at Esveld's Book Store as well. I feel lucky that another acerophile recommended it to me and that mine was the highest bid at an auction. Half the current price last fall seemed extravagant to me, but it was worth it. Until this book is within your budget, you can ask your local library to purchase a copy. I notice that the University of Washington Botanical Garden's Miller Library already owns a reference copy. I wonder about the UBCBG library? If you have a particular question and do not yet have access to it or have only conflicting information on a given cultivar, send a personal message, and I will look it up for you or post a comment in a thread.
I know the feeling . I think we are all the same I just checked with Esvelds and took the plunge and ordered the book. I suppose that is a new maple off the shopping list this year LOL Thanks for the pointers and the recommendation. If I don't like it I can blame Laurie hehehehe
I thought that you would order it, Sam. Congratulations on your acquisition of this treasure, and you are certainly welcome to blame me if you are not happy! I valued the investment in number of plants that I would not be purchasing as well. The book treats all species of Acer endemic to Japan, which is so valuable. Now we have at least two resources for a private message!
The book treats all species of Acer endemic to Japan, which is so valuable. From the "committee" translations of the old Maples of the World books from Japan, many of the Acer species were endemic to Japan that others more recently have laid claim to being their Maple, such as China and Korea. The old books do give an indication of how some of the species Maples that did originate from China and Korea came to Japan that many people will not know unless they get multiple and agreed upon translations if they ever get their hands on those books. A single translation will not tell the whole story is what many people even in Japan felt many years ago prior to the 1967 book to come out of Japan. The Senkaki Maple is referenced in two of those four books as well as in a couple of the old, pre-1900 translated Yokohama nursery catalogs. The Senkaki Maple has been in Europe in the past in very select gardens in England for example. What has caused much confusion in the past is that the old Sango kaku to come into the US and the Sango kaku to come into Europe was not the same form, they were different and it took a long while for people to compare notes to realize that. The old Senkaki Maple has been in the US since the teens as Mr. Henry Hohman had it. Later in the early 20's the Luther Burbank nursery had the Maple. The old Japanese form that Henderson Experimental Gardens had were direct descendents of the Burbank Maple. Many of the old catalogs to come out of Japan did not make mention of the name of the Maple, some did but most of the older catalogs that I have seen did not which has caused some real problems for researchers trying to verify names of their Maple or someone else's Maple that came in from Japan. Many of the older catalogs just showed a photo, gave a description of the plant and listed the Maple by type only. Some catalogs only had photos in them, no description and no nothing else to work with. The Yano book is worth having, even just for the "eye candy" photos in the book. Any photo we can see can will help us in some way, regardless of whether the name is accurate or agreed upon or not. Mr. Yano's book is indeed a valuable addition to anyone's Maple library as we will see some Maples that we just do not see here or in Europe and that alone makes the book a must have for the educator, the hobbyist and the serious and the new collector. Jim
Other than the "eye candy" photos the only other interesting information is the date when the cultivar was first introduced. I've had the book since 2004 and I stick to the comments I made in the section on books. If you alredy have the Vertrees, Van Gelderen and Le Hardy de Beaulieu's books then I understand that you could consider putting it in your Santa Claus list this year. Yano's book is one tenth as useful as any of the three mentioned above. Gomero
O.T. My opinionated commentary Gomero, honest opinions is what we need to see more of in this forum, good going! Content and reference wise none of the books are the equal to the van Gelderen et al book and some of the reference information in it can be debated but we have to take into consideration that we learned some of that information a lot differently from one another. So there will be some areas of disagreement as to who and when a Maple can be referenced to. The more we discuss these plants the more likely we are able to give others some information that may help them have a better understanding of the plant that they have. That should be our goal. History can help but it cannot help any if we do not know how to apply what we've learned towards a particular Maple. For separation purposes the history of how the Maple grows and appears in varying locations can really help us if we will just let it. Some people prefer to put the person that wrote the book ahead of the people that grew the plants. That is a huge mistake as many times the person that wrote the book had to get much of their background information from the people that were growing the plants. In the case of Mr. van Gelderen not only were plants being grown by him and still are but a few other people contributed to the book and what they had to go through to get much of their information had to be a real challenge considering they did not have access to the books written in Japan like a few select people did here. When I think of what information they did not have access to at the time makes me really appreciate their work more than I do anyone else's of the three other books referenced by Gomero. Vertrees had help, a lot of it but J.D. had a passion for Maples that so many people then did not and still do not have today while others wanted a book on Japanese Maples to come about and that was more important to them than risk having J.D. get all of the credit for their collaborative efforts. The pursits did not care as they felt it was the plant they were helping to promote while encouraging others to learn more of and possibly grow. Mr. van Gelderen had other gentlemen help out that did a marvelous job in the content considering what they had for references and one thing we have to remember is that they did not write the book to grease their own egos either, they did what they could to help the rest of us and they were rather successful at what they did for us. Even though they may not have known what some of their contemporaries thought of their work at the time as many people either act out due to jealousy or they appreciate and not say much or do not say anything. The latter was more true of the reaction here in the US and in some circles in Japan. The Maples of the World book, the Vertrees and the Vertrees/Gregory Japanese Maples books have become permanent mainstays for us and they deserve to be. I will say the Illustrated Guide to Maples did solve a problem for me in a way in this Maple forum (photo gallery) in that two particular Maples were named the way I remembered them. I smile every time I look at those photos. Aside from some of the common name spellings of some of the palmatum type Maples that was not really the authors fault for toeing the line with the new trend, I think this book will also become a mainstay in our Maple libraries also. Rather careful consideration was taken towards taking the photo of the right plant from what I've seen, even if species forms are not my strength area in Maples. I even saw a photo of our old Silver Maple that came from Hillier and that alone delighted me to no end and made me feel pretty darn good that I bought that book! Jim
Here are pictures of my Sango Kaku taken this morning, from Mr. Shep's description I think it is not the Senkaki? I do see some different looking 'Sango Kaku' out there, I am very pleased with my tree; the light green-yellow leaf color and bark color is still holding as of now. Bark color will fade in summer and then comes with a intense red similiar to Sam's picture in winter.
