Sangu kaku...red bark appears only in winter?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by user4, May 10, 2006.

  1. neko musume

    neko musume Active Member 10 Years

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    variation in "sango kaku"

    hello emery,

    in answer to your question, both of my sango kaku are grafted, but apparently, this is not a guarantee that either of them are cultivars.

    it has been my understanding, after reading through all the posts, ( and please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong ) that it is not uncommon to buy a grafted tree, whose upper half is, in fact, a seedling.

    discounting the effects of soil and climate, and mislabeling, this would easily account for the lack of uniformity among cultivars which carry the same name.

    i think it's great that you have four sango kaku that have discernible differences. i commented in an earlier post that i wish i could have a couple of each variety that i have, just to see how different or similar they are in different environments or growing conditions.

    i actually have an umegae, a "butterfly", and a "garnet" that i have issues with, all of which are grafted, but they are for another set of posts. ^_^

    i will include a few photos of the sango kaku i have on my balcony, and will add some photos of my first one, when i next visit it. one photo is of the side facing the sun, the greener side faces my apartment. so you can see the effects of direct sunlight on the leaves.

    thank you !

    n. musume
     

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  2. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Gosh, I actually crashed my browser trying to reply! OK, again.

    Actually I think you read it right. Obviously a "true" cultivar must be propagated vegetatively from the original plant. But our experience indicates that, not only in the US, there are plants being sold as Sango Kaku that exhibit sizable variation.

    So, why? Is there an environmental factor that could cause a clone to modify its behavior regardless of the future environments of its offspring? Have we seen dilution of this cultivar through similar, but perhaps more tolerant plants like Eddisbury, or indeed good growing seedlings that exhibit very similar characteristics? Is it possible that Sango Kaku has become a grex?

    Dunno! Of my 4, I consider the "true" one that which came from Esveld. The other dutch plant is very similar, and may in fact be identical. (It's older.) The Spanish and French plants are considerably paler, and show other differences. The French is not very vigorous, to the point where I wonder if it might not want to be a dwarf form; but of course I could just have a less healthy plant. It's leaves are considerably smaller and seem to scorch more easily.

    Your plants are very pretty, thank you for the pictures. I have been taking a photo-log of my maples leafing out this year, in the fall I will post a link to the series'. Hopefully I will be able to separate the different Sango Kakus into separate series.

    -E
     
  3. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Actually it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to find that unscrupulous nurseries have been grafting 'less than pure' scions onto root stock, thereby effectively leading to a 'bastardisation' (what a horrible word) of the original cultivar
    It seems to me that we are now getting to the stage where we will have to simply enjoy our maples for their outstanding beauty rather than for their 'name'
     
  4. neko musume

    neko musume Active Member 10 Years

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    "sango kaku"

    hi emery,

    i'm looking forward to seeing your series of photos. although i think that would be a far more educational way of learning about them, i don't have the patience to wait until the end of the year and do a proper series with all of my trees. >_<

    i'm especially curious to see the different shades of red your bark will exhibit.

    the bark of my first sango kaku seemed to have a much more robust color of red on the side that faced the sun, with the new shoots from last year, emerging and retaining their bright red color until this past march. the bark on this one is now an even green all over.

    and whis4ey,

    i think you're correct about having the right attitude in just enjoying the trees for their beauty. i know i could get totally obssessed with hunting down and acquiring the "real-deal-holyfield" cultivars, but i've neither the finances, nor the time, and least of all, the education and experience to know what to look for.

    and thank you for sharing all the photos from your lovely garden ! ^_^

    n. musume
     
  5. Laurie

    Laurie Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    From Yano, Masayoshi. Book For Maples [カエデの本] (Japan Maple Publishing Group 2003):
    Acer palmatum ‘Sango kaku’ (1882)
    Synonym [海老の髭] ‘Ebi no hige’
    An old cultivar with red stems in winter. The spring foliage is yellow-green with brown tips. The summer leaves are green turning orange or yellow in autumn.
    Sam, you would love this book! (A pre-publication description: http://ganshuku.cool.ne.jp/20_02BookEN.html.) The leaves in the photograph of ‘Sango kaku’ look just like the leaves I typically see. There is no mention of any cultivar named ‘Senkaki’. Neko, I never see the beautiful color here that the leaves take on in the southern California sunshine, so that is one trade-off for not seeing the deep color in the bark. Have a great time at that sale!
     
  6. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Laurie ..... I would LOVE to have that book
    Do you know where it can be bought?
    What is the exact title?
     
  7. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    whis4ey,

    I've seen that "Book for Maples" is available at the Maillot site. I just checked and Esveld now has it also. Many zorros, sadly. I will get my wife to give it to me for Christmas, that way I won't have to know what it cost.

    I'm sure we'd all agree that we appreciate our plants for their beauty, not necessarily whether they are the "real McCoy." Some of my favorite plants, as I walk around the garden, are those I've nursed and had trouble with, even if they aren't the the healthiest or most perfect.

    But, but. After all the hours poring in the books, memorizing the names, comparing sources, making a point to see that cultivar or rare species when travelling, I get pretty obsessive. (At least that's what my family and friends say!) When I finally find and purchase a plant. I really want to know it's what I think it is. I will appreciate it just the same, but I am disappointed when I don't get what I'm expecting.

    I'm relatively new to this, but I am starting to get the impression that there are some less than squeaky clean folks in the business. (I suppose that's true in any business). I was in a local garden center today and glanced at the palmatums as I always do. There was a green maple labeled "Bloodgood!" Now, I'm sure this was an honest mistake, and the fellow said when I pointed it out that a bunch of labels had fallen off and been re-stapled. Even still.

    -E
     
  8. user4

    user4 Member

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  9. Laurie

    Laurie Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    It is really expensive at Esveld's Book Store as well. I feel lucky that another acerophile recommended it to me and that mine was the highest bid at an auction. Half the current price last fall seemed extravagant to me, but it was worth it. Until this book is within your budget, you can ask your local library to purchase a copy. I notice that the University of Washington Botanical Garden's Miller Library already owns a reference copy. I wonder about the UBCBG library? If you have a particular question and do not yet have access to it or have only conflicting information on a given cultivar, send a personal message, and I will look it up for you or post a comment in a thread.
     
  10. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I know the feeling . I think we are all the same
    I just checked with Esvelds and took the plunge and ordered the book. I suppose that is a new maple off the shopping list this year LOL
    Thanks for the pointers and the recommendation. If I don't like it I can blame Laurie hehehehe
     
  11. Laurie

    Laurie Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I thought that you would order it, Sam. Congratulations on your acquisition of this treasure, and you are certainly welcome to blame me if you are not happy! I valued the investment in number of plants that I would not be purchasing as well. The book treats all species of Acer endemic to Japan, which is so valuable. Now we have at least two resources for a private message!
     
  12. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    LOL
    I am looking forward to getting this book
    An hour earlier to bed every night with a good read :)
     
  13. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    The book treats all species of Acer endemic to
    Japan, which is so valuable.


    From the "committee" translations of the old Maples
    of the World
    books from Japan, many of the Acer
    species were endemic to Japan that others more
    recently have laid claim to being their Maple, such
    as China and Korea. The old books do give an
    indication of how some of the species Maples
    that did originate from China and Korea came to
    Japan that many people will not know unless they
    get multiple and agreed upon translations if they
    ever get their hands on those books. A single
    translation will not tell the whole story is what
    many people even in Japan felt many years ago
    prior to the 1967 book to come out of Japan.

    The Senkaki Maple is referenced in two of
    those four books as well as in a couple of the
    old, pre-1900 translated Yokohama nursery
    catalogs. The Senkaki Maple has been in
    Europe in the past in very select gardens in
    England for example. What has caused much
    confusion in the past is that the old Sango kaku
    to come into the US and the Sango kaku to
    come into Europe was not the same form,
    they were different and it took a long while
    for people to compare notes to realize that.
    The old Senkaki Maple has been in the US
    since the teens as Mr. Henry Hohman had it.
    Later in the early 20's the Luther Burbank
    nursery had the Maple. The old Japanese
    form that Henderson Experimental Gardens
    had were direct descendents of the Burbank
    Maple.

    Many of the old catalogs to come out of Japan
    did not make mention of the name of the Maple,
    some did but most of the older catalogs that I
    have seen did not which has caused some real
    problems for researchers trying to verify names
    of their Maple or someone else's Maple that
    came in from Japan. Many of the older catalogs
    just showed a photo, gave a description of the
    plant and listed the Maple by type only. Some
    catalogs only had photos in them, no description
    and no nothing else to work with.

    The Yano book is worth having, even just for the
    "eye candy" photos in the book. Any photo we
    can see can will help us in some way, regardless
    of whether the name is accurate or agreed upon
    or not. Mr. Yano's book is indeed a valuable
    addition to anyone's Maple library as we will
    see some Maples that we just do not see here
    or in Europe and that alone makes the book a
    must have for the educator, the hobbyist and
    the serious and the new collector.

    Jim
     
  14. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Other than the "eye candy" photos the only other interesting information is the date when the cultivar was first introduced. I've had the book since 2004 and I stick to the comments I made in the section on books. If you alredy have the Vertrees, Van Gelderen and Le Hardy de Beaulieu's books then I understand that you could consider putting it in your Santa Claus list this year. Yano's book is one tenth as useful as any of the three mentioned above.

    Gomero
     
  15. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    O.T. My opinionated commentary

    Gomero, honest opinions is what we need
    to see more of in this forum, good going!

    Content and reference wise none of the books
    are the equal to the van Gelderen et al book and
    some of the reference information in it can be
    debated but we have to take into consideration
    that we learned some of that information a lot
    differently from one another. So there will be
    some areas of disagreement as to who and when
    a Maple can be referenced to.

    The more we discuss these plants the more likely
    we are able to give others some information that
    may help them have a better understanding of the
    plant that they have. That should be our goal.
    History can help but it cannot help any if we do
    not know how to apply what we've learned towards
    a particular Maple. For separation purposes the
    history of how the Maple grows and appears in
    varying locations can really help us if we will
    just let it. Some people prefer to put the person
    that wrote the book ahead of the people that
    grew the plants. That is a huge mistake as
    many times the person that wrote the book
    had to get much of their background information
    from the people that were growing the plants.
    In the case of Mr. van Gelderen not only were
    plants being grown by him and still are but a
    few other people contributed to the book and
    what they had to go through to get much of
    their information had to be a real challenge
    considering they did not have access to the
    books written in Japan like a few select
    people did here. When I think of what
    information they did not have access to
    at the time makes me really appreciate
    their work more than I do anyone else's
    of the three other books referenced by
    Gomero.

    Vertrees had help, a lot of it but J.D. had
    a passion for Maples that so many people
    then did not and still do not have today
    while others wanted a book on Japanese
    Maples to come about and that was more
    important to them than risk having J.D.
    get all of the credit for their collaborative
    efforts. The pursits did not care as they
    felt it was the plant they were helping
    to promote while encouraging others to
    learn more of and possibly grow. Mr.
    van Gelderen had other gentlemen help
    out that did a marvelous job in the content
    considering what they had for references
    and one thing we have to remember is
    that they did not write the book to grease
    their own egos either, they did what they
    could to help the rest of us and they were
    rather successful at what they did for us.
    Even though they may not have known
    what some of their contemporaries thought
    of their work at the time as many people
    either act out due to jealousy or they
    appreciate and not say much or do not say
    anything. The latter was more true of the
    reaction here in the US and in some circles
    in Japan.

    The Maples of the World book, the Vertrees
    and the Vertrees/Gregory Japanese Maples
    books have become permanent mainstays
    for us and they deserve to be.

    I will say the Illustrated Guide to Maples did
    solve a problem for me in a way in this Maple
    forum (photo gallery) in that two particular
    Maples were named the way I remembered
    them. I smile every time I look at those
    photos. Aside from some of the common
    name spellings of some of the palmatum
    type Maples that was not really the authors
    fault for toeing the line with the new trend,
    I think this book will also become a mainstay
    in our Maple libraries also. Rather careful
    consideration was taken towards taking the
    photo of the right plant from what I've seen,
    even if species forms are not my strength
    area in Maples. I even saw a photo of our
    old Silver Maple that came from Hillier and
    that alone delighted me to no end and made
    me feel pretty darn good that I bought that
    book!

    Jim
     
  16. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    The best education is always achieved by the study of more than one source
     
  17. PoorOwner

    PoorOwner Active Member 10 Years

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    Here are pictures of my Sango Kaku taken this morning, from Mr. Shep's description I think it is not the Senkaki?

    I do see some different looking 'Sango Kaku' out there, I am very pleased with my tree; the light green-yellow leaf color and bark color is still holding as of now. Bark color will fade in summer and then comes with a intense red similiar to Sam's picture in winter.
     

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  18. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    That is really very similar to my own two trees
     

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