What exactly is Bordeaux mix?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Schattenfreude, Oct 9, 2014.

  1. Schattenfreude

    Schattenfreude Active Member

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    and what does it do for the tree? I've seen this mentioned in many threads, yet have no idea what a Bordeaux mix (or copper) is.

    Thanks in advance.

    Kevin in KC
     
  2. Sundrop

    Sundrop Well-Known Member

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  3. Schattenfreude

    Schattenfreude Active Member

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    Thanks for the link, Sundrop.

    After reading a few articles about Bordeaux mix, I get the feeling that it works in areas with moist, damp winters. The winter air here is quite dry, so am I correct in thinking that the Bordeaux mix is unnecessary? Or would it best be applied in late winter before bud break, since our springs can be cool and damp?

    Please share your thoughts...

    Kevin in KC
     
  4. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    As well as it's antifungal properties Bordeaux mix is an essential tool in fighting pseudomonas bacteria in maples.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_copper

    There are many articles referencing the use of copper as a crop or horticultural control, you can google "copper pseudomonas" for example.

    I have personal experience of successfully "curing" large pseudomonas infections on primary trunks on both section macrantha and palmata maples; also the black tip die-back due to pseudomonas is very much reduced by the judicious use of copper.

    Like any other phytosanitary products, if you don't need to use them you shouldn't. There's no question that copper is a pollutant, especially over the long term.

    HTH

    -E
     
  5. DougieMapleSeed

    DougieMapleSeed Active Member

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  6. opusoculi

    opusoculi Rising Contributor

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    Tchin ! Bordeaux mixture is the most widely used, yes .

    Seriously, we think that we obtain now best results with other forms of cooper .
    -Cooper hydroxyd is beter during végétation period for Acer leaves (if necessary),also pear and Apple trees , tomatos and specialy for flowers when it rains too much.
    -During winter, best results with cooper oxychlorure for trunc and branches .

    posted from Bordeaux -grape harvets near to be closed-
     
  7. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    Hi, can anyone share what is the equivalent product that commonly sells in US?. I tried to look for it on Amazon and it shows many other similar products but not sure they are the same. Any tip is appreciated. Thanks.
     
  8. opusoculi

    opusoculi Rising Contributor

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    Synonyms : cupreous hydroxyde ,copper monohydroxid , copper hydroxyde , (no préparation and keep long).
    copper dihydroxid(+2) is a little bit different .

    Copper sulphate is the traditional Bordeaux mixture , prepared with quicklime. In Europe it's ready, presented as a powder.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2014
  9. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Just thought I'd mention an experiment I did this year.I mixed 4 different strengths of Bordeaux mix right up to the full recommended ratio on the bottle.I then watered some young maple seedlings with them and observed.Knowing how this stuff works and that I believe it is photoxic,when applying this thick bright blue mixture I virtually expected them to drop dead before my eyes.
    Anyway a week later I was amazed all were still alive.So I then applied the full strength to my 'Shishigashira'(which I posted about with the blackened bark problems) and another 2 maples with issues.I left these for a week before resuming normal watering.
    I know any damage to bark or leaves can never be rectified,just halted.All three maples are still alive and the problems haven't worsened.I've also had maples that have got over this problem themselves with no treatment.So therefore the results can only be considered inconclusive.The only drawback I noticed was that the seedlings were more sensitive to the sun during the experiment(some wilting)Personally I put this down to reduced osmosis due to the high concentration of the mix rather than any poisoning or chemical effects as they quickly recovered afterwards.
    Wether one believes this may be useful or not is up to the individual.Interestingly world health scientists are now studying copper as perhaps a new antibiotic.There is concern that current antibiotics will soon be useless and they've just realised the answer may have been right under their noses(the French have been using Bordeaux mix for ages)
    As I chose to start washing the copper out after a week,I cannot suggest use as a winter preventative measure as the copper must still remain in the pot for quite some time after application.This would need more trials.However it doesn't seem to have caused any harm to my maples so may be worth looking into.
     
  10. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    @ Houzi:

    I don't know what type, or brand, of Bordeaux mix you are using, but when I spray trees in full vegetation, the typical blue colour stays for at least two weeks before being washed out by the rain or watering from the hose. That's why I only use it when symptoms of fungal diseases show on trees in full leaves.

    In autumn, especially avec trimming dead or too long branches, the mixture penetrates to some extent into the wounds or porous parts of the wood (when it's dead), and you can still see it several weeks later.

    To me, it's a very efficient way of preventing trees to catch all sorts of diseases without destroying the "good" bacteria present in the soil. It's even accepted when used in reasonable amounts in organic agriculture.

    I posted a recent photo of a maple with bark damage in another thread, if you look carefully, you'll see that the blue colour is still visible on the part of the dead wood that hasn't been covered by the new growth two and a half years later. It was more of a "bordeaux paint" than Bordeaux mix, OK, but the tree is perfectly healthy and has even put on new growth down the trunk for the first time in years...

    http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showpost.php?p=332558&postcount=7
     
  11. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I guess for consumer purposes Bordeaux mix is available as powders or liquids, that don't last as well as the "real thing" mixed up as per the posted recipe. But even though I've got a lot of maples, I really don't ever need enough of it at one time to justify going through the whole process. What I buy is labelled "Bouillie Bordelaise" (Bordeaux Mixture) and comes as a powder. AFAIK it's a mixture of copper sulfate and lime with some sort of surfactant. It does have a tendency to clog up the sprayers.

    I also find the blue colour lasts for a couple of weeks on the leaves. I spray it on leaves or bark, I've never watered it in and I don't suppose this is the right way to use it.

    -E

    P.S. I believe there are various papers around discussing the immunity of fungi or bacteria to copper-based solutions, so their use probably isn't a cure-all, either.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2014
  12. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    The plant in question is a 'Shishigashira' of about 2.5" calipre.Every day I sit on the back step to smoke(bad habit I know)and the plant is facing me less than 3ft away.Almost overnight(it would seem as I look at this plant every day) a large black patch appeared at the base of the trunk.Previous experience has showed me that spraying or applying anything never seems to cure the blackness but anyway I painted some Bordeaux mixture on it.Soon afterwards the blackness showed through the blue Bordeaux mix,the area was clearly weeping now.I thought this must be quite serious so had to try something different.
    Yes mine was a powdered form which you mix with water.(30% tetracopper tricalcium sulphate)As said it can be painted on but I mixed 35g/1.5l water.
    I know it's usually used as a prevention rather than a cure,and when applying it to already infected areas,I've never witnessed any difference and not sure it's ever stopped the disease spreading..That's why I thought I'd try actually getting some into the plant as I was seriously scared I was going to lose it.Wether or not it had any beneficial effect being administered in this way I can't be sure,but when it came down to it I had nothing to lose.....desperate times call for desperate measures :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2014
  13. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Well, I disagree. I've had black pseudomonas on the trunks of maples and have been able to arrest and eventually eradicate the infection through repeated application of Bordeaux mix. In particular two trees I really thought I would lose, an A. pensylvaticum and an A. schneiderianum were really dire.

    I believe the use of copper to treat pseudomonas is pretty well documented on the web. Streptomycin (the antibiotic) is often used also but I've never seen it for sale in small quantities.

    It seems to me that tebuconazole (the ingredient in the Bayer product) is now available in the EU, but that it's a recent introduction.

    -E

    P.S. Hey Houzi if I managed to give up the monkey, anyone can! :)
     
  14. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    I fully agree, that is, from my experience.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
  15. opusoculi

    opusoculi Rising Contributor

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    I fully agree too, with my 70 years old experience ; any product (no one) is abble to treat pseudonomas, only copper have effect on.
    Apricot trees and Maple trees have the same bacteriosis,
    Copper oxychlorure ( stronger than Bordeaux mixture ) is used begining december and during winter.
    Cooper hydroxyd (stronger too) is supported by Acer leaves.

    @Houzi . For roots desease , Pythium , Phytophthora , Rhizoctomia or fusarium ,it is often difficult to know . I have got Banrot 40WP , i use it once last winter and spring for A.P ueno with succes . This old product is not available in Europe , only in U.S . Next time , you can try the available Propamocarbe as for Pine trees , Thuyas , Rhododendrons and Camelias on roots.

    Thanks U.S Mail .
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
  16. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I believe Alliette is an effective control for phytopthora and (perhaps less so) fusarium. Not sure about if this is available in the US, or under what name.
     
  17. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Thanks for all the replies guys.To be honest I'm not sure which disease/pathogen I'm dealing with,it's easy to accuse pseudomonas for everything but is anyone really sure?I don't really want to keep buying different chemicals for this&that.
    I've tried the only tebuconazole product I can find and haven't seen any miraculous improvements though some on here swear by it.It's my first line of attack though maybe I need to re-apply it over a longer period?
    Emery,I haven't tried repeat applications of Bordeaux mix as I've always thought it was a prevention,you say it does eventually work then?....I think that would be a safer way to go,how often and over how long would you repeat?...I'll give it a try next time.
    I can't say the plant is 'out of the woods' yet,it'll be going dormant soon and I guess there could still be problems within,though there must've been copper in the soil for quite a while afterwards.I just hope I've bought some time for it to section off the damage....we'll see next year.
    ......funny you should mention 'monkeys'...Houzi is chinese for monkey :)
     
  18. opusoculi

    opusoculi Rising Contributor

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    Yes for Aliette (Fosetyl AL 80%) but don't control cryptogam reproduction in ground.
    Propamocarbe (previcur or curasis in E.U) is abble to inhibit spores of phytophthora and some others canker pytium but not fusarium and verticilium one's.

    Good growing is the best prevention, i had only two desease during the 15 last years.

    Good autumn show.
     
  19. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    Right. I found it very interesting to read what Dick Van der Matt says about his experience in EM technology (http://www.dvandermaat.com/). Yet, it's more difficult in a small garden surrounded by other gardens where all the plants are not disease-free.
     
  20. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Both my accent and passport identify my origin as a NYer. ;) The former at least is a cross to bear in France! So fuhgeddaboudid, buddy. ;)

    Bordeaux mix is no panacea, but it is effective in our wet oceanic climates in France and the UK. And copper certainly seems to be the major tool to fight against certain fungal and bacterial infections; not just in Western Europe, either.

    Also in places like Atlanta there may be very limited issues with pseudomonas infection caused by heterogeneously nucleating ice crystals, simply because there is not enough time spent around freezing; this of course is one of the major places that copper can help us. Conversely tebuconazole may be more appropriate for your hotter and more humid climate there.

    @Houzi -- a monkey carrying a monkey! :) but there was no pun intended... -- I'veused a spray cure every 2-3 weeks, including during the dormant phase. If it works you'll see the black turn to brown, or sometimes white. I've seen one edge of the wound be more resistant and need longer treatment.

    You're right we can't really know what the problem is without lab work, which isn't accessible to us on this side of the pond. But long experience can be a pretty good indicator, and I think I can recognize a pseudomonas infection pretty well. FWIW for me they don't weep; so perhaps you've got something else. I do agree with Dougie that the tebuconazole is worth a try, too.

    -E
     
  21. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Cheers Emery,I'll treat it again and definately use it as a barrier for the coming winter.My tebuconazole is in a rose spray concentrate so I might experiment with less dilution sometime next year.
     
  22. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    Hello Houzi, emery, et al.

    I just bought the ingredients for this mix and ready to try it for the first time but i need to know when is the best time to apply it. And is it one application per year?.
    I am in zone 6 and 75% of my JMs are leafing out today.

    many thanks, steven
     
  23. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Sorry for late reply Stephen,I've only recently started using BM and only to try to kill an infection.I know the other guys on this thread have been using it a long time and will be better able to advise.However you shouldn't need to use it during the growing season on maples,just use it to protect thru the winter...so I'd apply it after leaf fall.Not sure if there's a need to re-apply...perhaps if it's a very wet winter...I'm sure someone will put us right on this :)
     
  24. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    From what I know, Houzi's right on the whole, though I've used itduring a particularly wet summer when the leaves were beginning to show black spots. But after leaf fall and then a couple of weeks before bud break is what most people I know do.
     
  25. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Steven, like the others I use it both as a treatment and as a deterrent. You can use it on plants that are leafed out, but I rarely do so except in the case of gray mold, where it is effective. In fact the wine industry uses it for exactly this on grape leaves during summer when it gets very humid, and some of the maples I grow, like circinatum for example, are susceptible to gray mold.

    So, mostly I start using it in fall, after leaf drop, when I spray all branches, and then repeat a few times during the winter, but stop in spring.

    Incidentally I also use Bordeaux mix on my peach tree for peach tree leaf curl.

    HTH, -E
     

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