What exactly is Bordeaux mix?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Schattenfreude, Oct 9, 2014.

  1. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    Oh I see. I thought it is used for leaf fungus in early Spring. I will save it until the falls then.

    Thank you for all your input.
     
  2. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    Hello Houzi and Emery again,
    I would like to spray my JMs with this Bordeaux Mix before the leaf started to come out this Spring, do you think I can spray them around the end of winter say in March time frame?. Do you know how long the blue stain will fade away and am I spraying the ground around the base of the trees also?.
    Thanks, steven
     
  3. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Steven,

    You can spray any time. The blue usually lasts for a couple of weeks, maybe a bit longer. It's not necessary to spray the ground, it won't harm the plant but won't help either, and the copper is a pollutant.

    Cheers,

    -E
     
  4. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    ''copper is a pollutant''
    So much so that pre-prepared 'Bordeaux Mixture' has now been banned in Eu and all stocks removed from shelves.....it's a shame as with our winters getting increasingly mild I need it more than ever.Managed to get a 2pac form off the bay.
     
  5. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Well, ugh. I hope it is still available at the ag coop. If not I will have to lay in a stock. The stuff is certainly essential (and as you say, it's increasingly mild...) and I hate the thought of having to make it up in large quantities.

    Snow today though, about 5 cm! But what about my roses? Thought I. :)

    -E
     
  6. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Snow?..hmm,wasn't that a horrible cold white stuff that used to bring my county to halt? ha ha.
     
  7. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Houzi and Emery for your great input. I didn't follow closely about whether this BM is banned in US or not but if this stuff is worked for my JMs then I may need to stock it up soon. I plan to start spraying my JMs in early March. So am I just spray around the branches, over the buds since there are no leaves yet, correct?.

    We have not seen any snow in Virginia so far and it looks like we will not have one in January. 2 more months to go until Spring, yeah!. I can't wait.

    Thanks again,
     
  8. opusoculi

    opusoculi Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    -N'exagérons pas les rumeurs d'interdiction.
    Let us try to make a clarification.
    To my knowledge, Europe does not have the intention prohibiting the use of copper in the organic farming, (currently authorized).
    There are negotiations in 2016 between the European Parliament and the Ministers for the agriculture of the member countries to recommend a reasoned use which is limited to 4 kg/hectare (6 kg/hectare a year is judged as an old limit that it is necessary to reduce, to decrease).
    In 2021 /2022 a large number of plant health products will be prohibited, but the various forms of preparations to copper will not be prohibited.
    If one were to produce potatoes in biological culture without means of fight against the mildew, it would cause the beginning of a food shortage (it is only one example).
    Copper does not circulate in the sap of the plants, it is a product which acts by contact. The disadvantages are for the ground, for this reason one should not misuse it, especially in the case of the grounds which received copper since decades.
    Some pulverizations are not determining for the future.

    - Let us not exaggerate the rumours of prohibition.


    To fight against the winter bacteria, pseudonomas syringae and the cankers, copper is useful; by using the treatment copper we are below amounts.


    The success of a cupric protection depends more of the quality of your pulverization and its positioning in the weather calendar than in the quantity of copper put in the treatment.


     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2016
  9. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Sorry Opusoculi,I wasn't scaremongering,just dismayed that I couldn't purchase BM anymore.Many amateur gardeners like myself used to be able to buy this ready mixed anywhere and may find it harder to locate the ingredients seperately or locally(though it's supposed to be superior to the ready mixed stuff)
    I have no doubts the ingredients will always be available somewhere and there are probably other copper based products available but ready mixed BM and a Bayer copper oxychloride based product have been withdrawn from stores here,I'm told due to an EU refusal to approve again.
     
  10. opusoculi

    opusoculi Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    Hello Houzi . I understand very well the unpleasant situation in witch you are.

    Copper does not appear in the list of the products prohibited by the European regulation.

    Each industrial society makes a request of registration of its commercial specialiies on the European list of the approved products . When the toxicological file is incomplete the file is refused. The reasons of refusal are numerous, I do not enter in detail it would be too long…
    I think that Bayer is perhaps in this case.
    The refusal are sometimes temporary. After setting in accordance with the regulation, the authorization will be guaranteed; i présumé.
    Today, the copper oxychloride of Bayer is on sale in France like many of other brands as well. It is similar in Italy in Spain. The Bordeaux mixture is sold in France under many other brands.


    See In the United Kingdom if copper is sold under other brands that Bayer. If so, one could deduce from it that Bayer had his refused request file.


    The authorization of the use of copper in the Europeéenne Union is not causes some, not yet…
    because the lobbys are very active and effective… They strongly dispute the use of copper in agriculture; they make copper worst poisons on Planet.
    I usually have an optimistic naturalness, but on this subject I am it less and less…



     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2016
  11. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Yes the Bayer removal may be just a coincidence I admit,perhaps nothing to do with the copper.I believe other Bayer products with copper are still available.There were 2or3 brands of Bordeaux mix on the shelves at one time but now no-one seems to stock any.However one brand is now selling 'Copper Mixture' instead,with suggested use for trace element deficiencies.Perhaps this is a way around the regs. I don't know,but I don't think it contains lime.Not to worry,I can still obtain BM on Ebay at the moment as a 2pac but it could be time to start looking for alternatives :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2016
  12. opusoculi

    opusoculi Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    In the strict sense of the word "alternative", there does not exist any other product able to prevent and stop winter bacteriosis on Acer and Apricot trees (they have this same desease , named Pseudonomas syringae, they have it exactly in the same conditions of wet winter), there does not exist any product equivalent to copper, so it cannot be replaced.

    For the Bordeaux mixure, all brands sell the same product, it does not have différence as result on Acer. Some have addition of blue colour and other not.
    If you use oxychloride of copper (without lime) in winter the result is the same, it does not matter. I use it in december and februari; that's all for the year.

    About tittle of the package as "copper mixture" or "winter treatment" and other commercial names...
    more look on the side of the box and read the composition of the product with the name of the active substance that is more instructive; but good glasses are needed because it is written very very small ...

    If you find hydroxyde of copper (liquid ordinary for vegetables as tomatos and patatos) you can use it with same succes.
    But this liquid is not able to be conserved durind years as oxychloride do.

    At last: cuprous oxide (oxyde cuivreux in french, commercial name: Nordox). It is a ochrous powder; this is the stronger form of copper used only in winter, specialy on Abricots trees and Mumes.
    Don't use it in pulverisation , but only with a brush on injured woods. It is the best copper for cankers and all sorts of bacterials (all kind of trees). You can keep this powder in it's bag for years and years.

    Rains here, 18 cm during the 2 last weeks.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2016
  13. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    Thanks for all this very useful information, opusoculi.

    Another product which is widely used to prevent fungal diseases is sulfur. I still have some in my basement that I bought years ago to make "lime sulfur", regularly used in the realm of bonsai to prevent dead wood from rotting and giving it a bleached, white aspect.

    It's also used in early winter in a diluted form (10%) by many bonsai enthusiasts.

    I personally don't use either of them on a regular basis: both are said to be suitable for "culture bio" (organic), but the less I use them, the better.

    It depends on the weather...
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2016
  14. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Yes thanks opusoculi,sounds like I should be able to find another product to keep me protected in the future :)
    BTW actually reached freezing temp. today for the 1st time this winter..glad in a way as already have one very sheltered palmatum pushing new growth on one branch...they need reminding it is actually still winter
     
  15. opusoculi

    opusoculi Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    Dear Alain
    mode of action of sulphur must be explained: once pulverized on the plants, sulphur is transformed into vapors charged with sulphur particles which wrap the plants literally. These sulphur particles are absorbed by mushrooms responsible for the diseases, like the oïdium, and cause their destruction.
    This phenomenon of evaporation is called sublimation. It starts only owing to one high temperature and of a minimal luminosity. Indeed, under the effect of the sunlight, sulphur releases 5 times more vapors than in covered weather and especially, sublimation is activated only starting from 18°, with optimal conditions enters 23 and 25°.
    Sulphur has an action on the oïdium and the tavelure fruit-bearing species, one applies it to the sheets.
    The nurserymen and the nursery gardeners specialized in Maples do not use sulphur in winter. All know that in winter neither the luminosity of the sun nor the temperature are sufficient to transform sulphur into gas; it cannot have any effect on the winter diseases which relate to the trunks and the branches.
    It is true that you can mix sulphur with copper (mixture named sulfo-calcic ). It is true that sulphur does not make any evil, it is a trace element (oligo-element) which does not enter in chemical combination with other products. But to in any case it cannot be an alternative to copper: it does not treat the same diseases that copper and one does not employ it at the same time of the year. Its only use for Maples is to treat the oïdium of the sheets in summer.
    My experiment of fruit-bearing arboriculture for 50 years has enabled me to affirm it sincerely
    For other precise details useful to know you can count on my collaboration, but unfortunatly in my school English...

    pierre

     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2016

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