What's this then?

I didn't see your answer before I wrote last. After that I was looking at this.

http://www.pinetum.org/JeffPNpinceana.htm

Gelderen/Smith photo must be habit variant - certainly not that unusual an occurrence - or another species.

 

I assure you that I did not follow the analysis above, so would appreciate a bit of illumination on section 3. After the three long needles and blue hue, I was gambling with what I thought may be a match in the Cones section at www.pinetum.org. I was also trying to get more visual information on Pinus lumholtzii, which I understand has weeping needles, but I did not find much. Do you have a closer view of what the following means?
3. The young needle fascicles (left edge of pic) staying connate (the three needles stuck together) until they are full size.
Also, if this tree were older, wouldn't the needles lose the blue hue?
Thanks.

 

Just as I suspected! I thought the cone might've been the compared to another shown online to come up with that identification.

 

Hi Laurie,

Taking a peek at another cone from the same trees?? - I did wonder if someone might do that (yes, that one's mine too :-)

If you look at the needles on the pendulous shoot at the left of the pic, you can see they all look to be single, not in threes. That's because the three needles are still stuck together; they stay like that for several months before separating. In most "ordinary" pines, the needle fascicles have each needle separate within a week or two of emerging from the bud, long before they reach their mature length.

In terms of commonly grown pines that do this, your best chance of taking a look is with Pinus aristata - look at the current year's growth (still all green cylinders) compared to last year's (broken open into individual needles with the white inner surface now visible). This pic shows it fairly well:
http://www.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de/~db50/FOTO_-_Archiv/Pinus%20aristata%20NAm%20BotKA%20G2.jpg

 

Following up on the comment regarding the photo in VanGelderen's encylopedia, I believe that I read that there is interbreeding suspected among certain pines in Mexico. As far as research, since I am fond of pines, I checked first with Stumpers Rules:

Rule #2 - the answer has to be generic enough that it is answerable - it has to be something that a person could be either reasonably expected to know or be able to research.

Most of the photographs that come through here are mysteries to me, especially the flowers. Most humbly yours ...

 

Hi Laurie,

Pinus pinceaea is not involved in any hybridisation - it is a very distinct pine (you could reasonably call it a living fossil) with no very close relatives (its nearest relative is P. maximartinezii, which is very different). It is readily identifiable - I'd say there are very few if any pines that are easier to identify. It is only its rarity in cultivation making it unfamiliar to most people that makes it a challenge, though I thought there was a good chance that some of the regulars here would have visited Mexico and seen it.

The Mexican pines that are hybridising with each other are all 'hard' pines, in recently evolved, closely related species groups; most notably P. montezumae, P. hartwegii, P. pseudostrobus and their relatives (these are a real nightmare to identify!).

PS way past bedtime here so any more posts will have to wait till tomorrow for answers!

 

That's a most informative and educational stumper!

I am no expert on trees, let alone pines. I followed with great fascination the expertise of the posters here and felt compelled to just sit back and watch in awe! I declare Michael my resident expert on pines!

 

I think for the Mexican Pines there has been
some variation going on and we will see it
when we take a Pine that is native to one
area and grow it in another, especially if we
are dealing with seedlings grown from seed
from cones. We saw it in some seedlings
from cones that came into the nursery. We
can with some Pines see some elements of
differing characteristics evolve over time
and we have to wonder is it hybridization
that has occurred or is what we are seeing
due to environmental influences arising
from different growing regions or are we
seeing a natural progression the plant will
undergo that we were not able to see
happen with the parent plant. How could
we see how the parent plant evolves if we
were not ever there to monitor it?

I have no problems at all with what Michael
did. He had me going also in that I felt the
Pine was of Mexican origin but I did not
know for sure which one it was. As long
as we stick with species forms then there
is no one trying to fool people and that
certainly did not happen in this case. It
was a very good brainteaser for all of us.

It is readily identifiable - I'd say there are
very few if any pines that are easier to
identify.

My only caution would be to this statement
above. I am not so sure that is true in this
case. Even more true when we have not
seen one in person to know for ourselves
if this Pine is that easily distinguished
from other Mexican Pines or other Pines
in general. It is always much easier to
for us feel that sentiment is true when
we've been around the plant, know where
the Pine came from and have grown it.

Jim

 

Hi Jim,

The seed was wild-collected, so there's no doubts on the identity (and all pine seeds come out of cones :-).

There do appear to be one or two small environmental effects with it being grown under glass in Britain (tho' it is outside in warm weather in the summer), the stomatal bands are more obvious than they are on the wild trees at the end of a hot, dusty Mexican desert summer (which wears off a lot of the white wax), and some of the needles are a little longer than on wild trees (mine has a few 16cm needles on the main stem, but on wild trees they're only reported to 14cm - the ones in the quiz photo are all within the normal range though)

 

Hi Michael:

I am not questioning you, the Pine or its origin.
I think by the responses we can see just with
this Pine alone that with the Mexican and the
Central American Pines there is a lot we do
not know yet. We had mainly 5 needle Pines
come in from Mexico, either from arboretums,
or from cones collected from the wild just to
grow seeds on and evaluate the seedlings. I
only remember one of these Pines ever being
propagated later at the nursery.

It is hard to gauge by a partial photo exactly
what we are seeing as even this Pine shows
similarities to other North American Pines,
even some Himalayan ones but many of the
Himalayan Pines that we more commonly
see are 5 needled. There has been a lot
of confusion for years with Pines based on
physical traits which is one reason why the
Europeans studied the cones much more
than we did here. With the cones then it
did not matter if the Ponderosa Pine was
grown in British Columbia, or in Yosemite
or in the UK, the cones would be pretty
much the same for identification purposes.
We are more apt to see some varying physical
characteristics in the Pines themselves more
so than from the cones so we've had to study
the traits that we see a little more than others
have. It is here that what may seem easy to
us after we've learned when the needle bundles
open up, no longer stick together, is not so
simple for others to see and know in other
locations. The 5 needle bundles of a Pinus
aristata in the UK may not look the same
as they will here in Yosemite is what I am
getting at. We will see those new growth
bundles open up sooner than most areas will.
The same will be true for many Mexican Pines
as opposed to here when the needles are melded
together and when they will separate. People
in Mexico have not seen their Pines grown here
so there is an assumption being made on both
sides of which that reasoning may not be on
the same page is what we learned the hard way
when we asked a few questions and the people
we talked to the South years ago did not know
what to tell us in return.

Jim